Rethink Culture

[00:00:07.13 - 00:00:10.03] Good morning, good afternoon and good evening.
[00:00:10.03 - 00:00:14.19] Welcome to the Rethink Culture podcast, the podcast that shines a spotlight on the
[00:00:14.19 - 00:00:18.00] business leaders who are creating intentional cultures.
[00:00:18.08 - 00:00:24.04] My name is Andreas Konstantinou and I am your host and I'm also the founder of
[00:00:24.05 - 00:00:27.11] Rethink Culture, a company that aims to help 1 million businesses create a
[00:00:27.11 - 00:00:30.10] healthier, more fulfilling work culture.
[00:00:30.18 - 00:00:35.08] We just launched a new service, Culture Health Score, that turns your culture into a KPI.
[00:00:36.13 - 00:00:44.22] And today I have the pleasure of welcoming Wendy Van Ierschot, the founder and CEO of
[00:00:44.22 - 00:00:51.10] VIE people, that's V-I-E, People and Culture, an advisory firm for fast scaling
[00:00:52.17 - 00:00:54.11] companies in the Netherlands.
[00:00:54.21 - 00:00:56.11] She's many things.
[00:00:56.11 - 00:00:58.08] She's a business angel investor.
[00:00:58.08 - 00:00:59.10] She's a podcaster.
[00:00:59.10 - 00:01:02.15] She's recorded over 160 episodes for Dutch
[00:01:02.17 - 00:01:06.12] business radio news channel called The Work Professor.
[00:01:07.11 - 00:01:15.03] She's listed on the worldwide top 100 HR influencers list and she just published
[00:01:15.03 - 00:01:21.01] her book, Scale-ups & downs, which aim to guide an organization through the
[00:01:21.01 - 00:01:24.19] stages of growth and she's been researching that for many years.
[00:01:24.19 - 00:01:30.04] I met Wendy a while ago, we're both at the Entrepreneurial Organization, we were both
[00:01:30.04 - 00:01:31.15] at the same class.
[00:01:32.02 - 00:01:37.16] And also you might notice Wendy wearing glasses, which I love by the way.
[00:01:37.21 - 00:01:42.05] And I think you are slightly visually impaired, which is why you're wearing
[00:01:42.05 - 00:01:47.19] glasses, but it's the most fashionable way of making that statement that you could
[00:01:47.19 - 00:01:48.10] possibly be.
[00:01:49.02 - 00:01:50.08] Thank you, yeah.
[00:01:50.08 - 00:01:55.21] It's of course not nice to be visually impaired, but then when I became I thought
[00:01:55.21 - 00:01:59.05] I do something that it also looks a bit better.
[00:01:59.16 - 00:02:01.23] It does, it does.
[00:02:02.01 - 00:02:03.15] It's a fashion statement.
[00:02:05.00 - 00:02:07.08] So where do we start, Wendy?
[00:02:07.12 - 00:02:12.00] How long have you been into HR and culture in general?
[00:02:12.00 - 00:02:15.12] And is that, was that by choice or was that by accident?
[00:02:15.14 - 00:02:17.00] It is by choice.
[00:02:17.06 - 00:02:21.02] I studied business administration, then I was...
[00:02:22.02 - 00:02:26.12] My first contract and employer was Shell, the big oil company.
[00:02:26.21 - 00:02:30.23] And there I got the offer actually to choose between marketing and HR.
[00:02:31.06 - 00:02:39.09] And I felt that the topics that are in the HR field are in my interest area.
[00:02:39.16 - 00:02:44.15] And that was a good choice actually, because I got a lot of offers during my
[00:02:44.15 - 00:02:51.13] career to go into more line manager roles or other professional areas, especially
[00:02:51.13 - 00:02:52.15] within Shell.
[00:02:52.15 - 00:02:58.00] But I think thinking about cultures, how people work together, making it better on
[00:02:58.00 - 00:03:02.06] the working floor, also leadership development is still something that is
[00:03:02.06 - 00:03:03.23] very inspiring for me.
[00:03:05.00 - 00:03:08.04] You mentioned already, I wrote the book, Scale-ups & downs
[00:03:08.04 - 00:03:11.03] The English version is ready, I think, in a few weeks.
[00:03:11.03 - 00:03:16.19] And probably when this is broadcast, it is already to be bought at Amazon.
[00:03:16.22 - 00:03:24.16] But I list there what is the best way for entrepreneurs to develop their companies?
[00:03:24.16 - 00:03:25.13] What is the culture?
[00:03:25.13 - 00:03:27.18] Why it is so difficult to get the right culture?
[00:03:27.18 - 00:03:31.10] And also what are your priorities in the HR field?
[00:03:32.06 - 00:03:36.17] But if you read that book, it's the total opposite of what Elon Musk, for example,
[00:03:36.17 - 00:03:37.08] is doing.
[00:03:37.08 - 00:03:41.23] Or there are other leaders that are very successful and that are doing things that,
[00:03:42.01 - 00:03:47.16] out of research, is clearly not working, but in their companies it is working.
[00:03:47.18 - 00:03:52.17] So now I'm, for example, really investigating into what are they then doing?
[00:03:52.17 - 00:03:59.12] What is the combination of elements they put together that it does work, although
[00:03:59.12 - 00:04:01.15] they create a culture of fear,
[00:04:01.15 - 00:04:08.03] and they create a culture where there's high pressure all the time and also a lot
[00:04:08.03 - 00:04:09.22] of people are not staying, you know.
[00:04:09.22 - 00:04:14.08] So very, very interesting field.
[00:04:14.08 - 00:04:20.21] And with the new technology, a lot of new data is coming up where we also get a
[00:04:20.21 - 00:04:25.14] better steering wheel, I think, for driving and navigating through these
[00:04:25.14 - 00:04:26.17] cultural processes.
[00:04:27.03 - 00:04:29.18] So I'm curious about your book, I want to ask you more.
[00:04:30.19 - 00:04:32.05] Very quick personal story.
[00:04:32.05 - 00:04:39.01] So when I was starting as an entrepreneur, my role model was Steve Jobs, as was the
[00:04:39.01 - 00:04:42.22] role model for a lot of people, which was the wrong model in many ways.
[00:04:43.03 - 00:04:50.13] It's the know-it-all guy, the visionary leader who kind of pushes people out of
[00:04:50.13 - 00:04:54.17] their way or out of his way in order to get...
[00:04:55.05 - 00:05:01.00] you know, his own vision executed and is in a sense...
[00:05:01.00 - 00:05:03.06] And who can stamp on the research
[00:05:03.06 - 00:05:07.05] reports and say, what is this for bullshit, things like that, yeah.
[00:05:07.05 - 00:05:15.12] Yeah, and I found, well firstly, it was not my true self, it was not my authentic self.
[00:05:15.15 - 00:05:19.08] So it took me many years, and especially through EO, watching other leaders and
[00:05:19.08 - 00:05:25.22] learning, to realize that I'm much more of a servant leader.
[00:05:27.04 - 00:05:32.14] But I started from completely the wrong role model because that was the role model
[00:05:32.14 - 00:05:37.04] that was being played back again and again through the media.
[00:05:37.10 - 00:05:39.02] Indeed. And that’s exactly...
[00:05:39.02 - 00:05:44.10] it's very interesting, isn't it, that we have leaders in our media that we know out
[00:05:44.10 - 00:05:52.11] of research that they're doing elements in their behavior that is not motivating, not
[00:05:52.11 - 00:05:54.11] inspiring for people to work with.
[00:05:54.11 - 00:05:57.19] And on the other hand, they achieve amazing results.
[00:05:57.19 - 00:06:02.01] I think it's actually, I'm now making a list of what are the pros and cons.
[00:06:02.01 - 00:06:06.06] And I think my hypothesis is that it's...
[00:06:06.06 - 00:06:13.10] It comes along with also elements that you are having a BHAG, a big hairy odacious
[00:06:13.10 - 00:06:19.08] goal that is very inspiring for people in the combination with your own excellence
[00:06:19.08 - 00:06:27.13] as a really genius mind and you also have you have the same behavior so you stay up
[00:06:27.13 - 00:06:33.05] all night doing work yourself and success from
[00:06:33.05 - 00:06:36.18] you know, so there are a lot of other aspects that also need then to be there.
[00:06:36.18 - 00:06:42.04] And it's something that should be your authentic self indeed and cannot be copied.
[00:06:43.09 - 00:06:47.09] The inspiration for this podcast was actually that we use the wrong success
[00:06:47.09 - 00:06:53.10] metrics or we use exclusively performance as success metric in the media and we
[00:06:53.10 - 00:06:56.06] should be looking at happiness and fulfillment
[00:06:56.15 - 00:06:59.11] and how people learn and grow.
[00:07:00.02 - 00:07:03.22] You mentioned leadership development as a passion of yours, so how people grow in
[00:07:03.22 - 00:07:09.15] the organizations and how taking care of the people will take care of the business itself.
[00:07:09.20 - 00:07:12.23] So yeah, we need to change our paradigms.
[00:07:13.03 - 00:07:16.14] And I think also that if you look at the sustainable development goals, for
[00:07:16.14 - 00:07:22.08] example, for the United Nations, there are a lot of aspects in there like equal pay
[00:07:22.08 - 00:07:33.23] or development of people, education, social welfare, physical health, that are
[00:07:33.23 - 00:07:36.11] being influenced by how we work.
[00:07:36.13 - 00:07:37.07] So,
[00:07:37.13 - 00:07:42.02] only by creating a work environment where people can grow and feel motivated and
[00:07:42.02 - 00:07:50.03] have meaning in what they're doing, is also really adding value to the world as a whole.
[00:07:50.03 - 00:07:54.01] And I think that is also an underappreciated aspect of companies.
[00:07:54.02 - 00:07:58.16] So walk me through what does a company do to build a culture?
[00:07:58.19 - 00:08:01.09] What are some of the key takeaways from your book?
[00:08:02.16 - 00:08:08.10] In my book I describe four stages of growth from 0 to 100 employees.
[00:08:08.10 - 00:08:13.17] The first stage is from 0 to 10, the second one is from 10 to 25 employees,
[00:08:13.17 - 00:08:17.04] then the third is from 25 to 60 and then 60 to 100.
[00:08:17.09 - 00:08:21.15] So there are four stages and for each stage of growth I describe that what you
[00:08:21.15 - 00:08:26.04] need to do to build a great culture is different.
[00:08:26.04 - 00:08:29.19] So that is the first lesson, I think, out of the book, that most of the time, if you
[00:08:29.19 - 00:08:34.07] read a book about culture or leadership, it's not telling you the difference
[00:08:34.07 - 00:08:37.03] between smaller or larger organizations.
[00:08:37.05 - 00:08:44.08] Now, to give you an example, for example, is in every new innovative company, you
[00:08:44.08 - 00:08:45.11] need innovation.
[00:08:45.11 - 00:08:49.17] And innovation, most of the time, is linked to being able to make mistakes
[00:08:49.17 - 00:08:52.10] because you need to walk into new...
[00:08:53.08 - 00:08:57.10] streets where you do not know the end yet and maybe it's a dead end street you need
[00:08:57.10 - 00:08:58.11] to go back.
[00:08:58.13 - 00:09:03.20] So we all agree that making mistakes is something that is needed to have a culture
[00:09:03.20 - 00:09:05.08] where that is possible.
[00:09:05.14 - 00:09:11.07] On the other hand you do not want people to be incompetent to make mistakes all the
[00:09:11.07 - 00:09:13.03] time in the wrong areas.
[00:09:13.03 - 00:09:16.09] So you do not want people to make a mistake that is something that could have
[00:09:16.09 - 00:09:21.03] been avoided only if you would have listened to your colleague or if you
[00:09:21.03 - 00:09:25.14] would have learned from last time and not repeated the same thing again.
[00:09:25.23 - 00:09:36.05] So one mistake that is a good step into innovation and creativity is not the same
[00:09:36.05 - 00:09:39.14] as another mistake that is just a form of incompetence.
[00:09:39.16 - 00:09:46.19] Now for example to make sure that you are very keen on incompetence, so making sure
[00:09:46.19 - 00:09:48.01] that is not possible.
[00:09:48.01 - 00:09:49.10] That you are very...
[00:09:49.10 - 00:09:54.08] focused on the right performance behaviors, core values in your company.
[00:09:54.08 - 00:09:58.21] For that, something else is needed in the first stage when you're only with six
[00:09:58.21 - 00:10:03.00] people, you're on one table, you know immediately if someone is performing or
[00:10:03.00 - 00:10:08.23] not, you see the sales go up or down, your metrics are not needed to be so exhaustive
[00:10:08.23 - 00:10:11.07] because you know exactly what happens.
[00:10:11.08 - 00:10:13.20] Different when you are with 60 people.
[00:10:13.20 - 00:10:17.10] You do not see everyone, not everyone is on the same floor, maybe in different
[00:10:17.10 - 00:10:20.06] departments, maybe even in different countries.
[00:10:20.06 - 00:10:25.14] You need a different system to investigate are people competent or incompetent and
[00:10:25.14 - 00:10:29.12] are the mistakes that are made mistakes that we need to learn faster than a
[00:10:29.12 - 00:10:36.19] composition or is it a mistake that should be leading to maybe firing someone because
[00:10:36.19 - 00:10:39.15] you're not up to par with what we need.
[00:10:39.16 - 00:10:43.13] Now that is, I think the main message of the book.
[00:10:43.15 - 00:10:50.09] Like we need to have tools in HR to more and more build the culture we want.
[00:10:50.09 - 00:10:55.00] So if you want to have creativity and innovation, you need to focus on
[00:10:55.00 - 00:10:59.22] intolerance for incompetence and making sure that you have built that right in
[00:10:59.22 - 00:11:00.17] your system.
[00:11:00.17 - 00:11:06.11] Another example is, for example, on the one hand you need strong leadership, a
[00:11:06.11 - 00:11:08.04] clear vision, a BHAG.
[00:11:08.04 - 00:11:12.21] What I already said, you know, like Elon Musk is working on the energy transition
[00:11:12.21 - 00:11:18.02] with electrical cars, making sure that people believe in the fact that it is the next
[00:11:18.02 - 00:11:25.22] wave of cars that we need to work on or going, you know, what he did with SpaceX.
[00:11:25.22 - 00:11:32.10] It's a very challenging and interesting idea and also very clear what we want.
[00:11:32.10 - 00:11:39.06] You know, like in two years time, I want a space shuttle in that direction.
[00:11:39.18 - 00:11:42.22] On the other hand, you need to let go and
[00:11:42.22 - 00:11:47.01] give people the responsibility to build your company because if you are doing
[00:11:47.01 - 00:11:50.21] everything yourself, you will be the bottleneck of the organization.
[00:11:50.21 - 00:11:57.11] Now, of course, if you're in stage two, up to 25 people, that has a different meaning
[00:11:57.12 - 00:12:01.17] because you cannot let everything be done by anyone else.
[00:12:01.17 - 00:12:04.03] You need to do a lot of things still yourself.
[00:12:04.03 - 00:12:09.17] Then if you are with 500 people, then you really want the company to be...
[00:12:09.21 - 00:12:17.09] relying on your management team and you, as the visionary founder, bringing the
[00:12:17.09 - 00:12:19.01] excitement in the company.
[00:12:19.01 - 00:12:23.14] So that also means something different for your style, your leadership style, as well
[00:12:23.14 - 00:12:30.02] for how you, what kind of nudges, little pushes in the right direction you need in
[00:12:30.02 - 00:12:30.23] your organization.
[00:12:31.05 - 00:12:35.15] What are some of the mistakes you see leaders of mid-sized organizations, I
[00:12:35.15 - 00:12:40.10] mean, in your paradigm, let's say 25 or 50 people, make?
[00:12:41.10 - 00:12:50.11] The biggest mistakes founders make is that what brought them the success is the main
[00:12:50.11 - 00:12:53.09] pitfall for further expansion.
[00:12:53.09 - 00:12:58.04] So to give you an example, if you start your own company, most of the time you
[00:12:58.04 - 00:13:02.01] have an idea I'm going to do this different than the competition.
[00:13:02.01 - 00:13:03.13] I have a new idea.
[00:13:03.16 - 00:13:06.02] What other people are doing is not the right way.
[00:13:06.02 - 00:13:08.09] This is the way I want to do it.
[00:13:08.09 - 00:13:12.20] Now, most of the time you have to pivot a few times, but if you would have listened
[00:13:12.20 - 00:13:20.00] to everyone in the beginning of your company, you would not have been able to
[00:13:20.04 - 00:13:25.12] sail out of the, how do you say that, out of the port, you know, because everyone is
[00:13:25.12 - 00:13:27.20] saying something different and you go all kinds of directions.
[00:13:27.20 - 00:13:31.12] So you need to have a sort of an idea, I'm going to do this, and of course you listen
[00:13:31.12 - 00:13:34.21] a bit to others, but you're sticking to your own points.
[00:13:34.21 - 00:13:37.21] Now, then if you are successful,
[00:13:37.21 - 00:13:43.17] and you are growing, then there is a point, and it is around 25 people, where
[00:13:43.17 - 00:13:46.20] you need to do exactly the opposite.
[00:13:46.20 - 00:13:52.15] Then you need to start shifting from, I'm the leader, I'm the most important person
[00:13:52.15 - 00:13:56.06] in this company, or maybe you're with two or three founders, we are the ones that
[00:13:56.06 - 00:14:02.03] are deciding this, towards, there needs to start a little management team, other
[00:14:02.03 - 00:14:05.16] people really need to drive the organization, I need to turn into a
[00:14:05.16 - 00:14:07.06] coaching style.
[00:14:07.08 - 00:14:13.12] I need to look for what is needed in the future in five years time and what comes
[00:14:14.02 - 00:14:21.17] as a threat to us from the outside world, for example by wars or by economic
[00:14:21.17 - 00:14:26.19] outlooks and what is the implication for that for our companies, what are the
[00:14:26.19 - 00:14:31.23] technology that is developed that could be of big influence of us.
[00:14:31.23 - 00:14:36.09] So you need to switch gears and also your style.
[00:14:36.09 - 00:14:41.10] While your style was what made you successful.
[00:14:41.10 - 00:14:46.09] So you need to realize I'm in a new stage and that is very difficult on the one hand
[00:14:46.09 - 00:14:49.17] because it's for most founders, they like this style.
[00:14:49.17 - 00:14:55.05] So they want to, the excitement of every day, you know, running your company,
[00:14:55.05 - 00:15:03.15] getting a new client in, the excitement of new research that fits and works, they
[00:15:03.15 - 00:15:05.22] need to step away a bit of that
[00:15:07.00 - 00:15:11.06] and let others really excel in that role.
[00:15:11.15 - 00:15:15.23] And you could choose actually not to do that, but then someone else need to become
[00:15:15.23 - 00:15:16.23] the CEO.
[00:15:16.23 - 00:15:22.12] So either you want to stay working in your business, but then someone else needs to
[00:15:22.12 - 00:15:27.11] work on your business, or you need to move to working on your business yourself,
[00:15:27.11 - 00:15:31.16] which means on the outlook, what is happening in the future?
[00:15:31.16 - 00:15:35.20] What will that be as a consequence for our company
[00:15:36.05 - 00:15:40.14] or, and the other aspect is capacity building.
[00:15:40.14 - 00:15:44.04] So what finance, what people, what capital do we need?
[00:15:44.04 - 00:15:46.00] What technology do we need for future?
[00:15:46.00 - 00:15:49.03] That is your working on your business task.
[00:15:49.03 - 00:15:51.17] And that's getting more and more important if you grow.
[00:15:51.17 - 00:15:54.18] Most founders cannot make that switch.
[00:15:55.07 - 00:16:05.02] One of the reasons for moving out from the CEO position for me was that I was managing
[00:16:05.02 - 00:16:10.05] other people that or specifically leading other people and so helping them be
[00:16:10.05 - 00:16:14.17] successful and so not getting my hands dirty with products or projects or
[00:16:14.17 - 00:16:15.17] clients.
[00:16:16.00 - 00:16:18.04] And that was something I missed a lot.
[00:16:18.15 - 00:16:21.20] Yeah, that you yourself would like this is what I like.
[00:16:21.20 - 00:16:24.16] But I had, I mean, my role was
[00:16:25.06 - 00:16:27.06] 25-35 people.
[00:16:27.08 - 00:16:31.08] My goal was then to make other people successful and not get my hands dirty
[00:16:31.08 - 00:16:37.11] because there's not that far I could go if I continued being in the business like you said.
[00:16:38.19 - 00:16:43.10] Yeah, so it's very interesting actually to hear that because I think that what you
[00:16:43.10 - 00:16:47.12] have experienced is something that a lot of leaders experience and founders and
[00:16:47.12 - 00:16:52.04] that you made the right move for the company, but then maybe you did not make
[00:16:52.04 - 00:16:53.18] the right move for yourself.
[00:16:53.18 - 00:16:55.06] You know, like, what do I like?
[00:16:55.06 - 00:16:56.18] Where do I get my energy from?
[00:16:56.18 - 00:17:02.18] And that's why I, in every stage of growth in my book, the first...
[00:17:04.17 - 00:17:08.04] The first element I discuss is you as a leader and your style.
[00:17:08.04 - 00:17:13.01] And also every time the question is the role that I'm doing right now, the role
[00:17:13.01 - 00:17:15.07] that energizes me as well.
[00:17:15.07 - 00:17:20.00] So making a bit more a difference between what is needed for my company and what is
[00:17:20.00 - 00:17:22.23] actually needed for me to be energized in my role.
[00:17:23.03 - 00:17:30.02] Yeah, in my case, I moved into hands-on work and product development as I'm doing
[00:17:30.02 - 00:17:31.19] now for Rethink Culture.
[00:17:31.19 - 00:17:34.13] So that was part of the transition plan.
[00:17:34.13 - 00:17:38.23] But it also reminds me that a lot of CEOs, entrepreneurs,
[00:17:39.14 - 00:17:45.10] think about the next day which is the exit or the or moving away from the CEO
[00:17:45.10 - 00:17:50.07] position, but they don't think about what gives them energy from their existing work
[00:17:50.07 - 00:17:53.02] and how they're going to replenish that.
[00:17:53.20 - 00:17:59.14] And at the end of the day, we have to be honest and assess what do we love doing?
[00:17:59.14 - 00:18:01.08] What are we really good at?
[00:18:01.11 - 00:18:04.01] Can we do it within the existing business?
[00:18:04.13 - 00:18:06.12] And if so, what's our niche spot?
[00:18:06.12 - 00:18:10.22] You know, if it's creative or if it's strategy or if it's culture or something else.
[00:18:11.05 - 00:18:14.22] And let other people run, you know, every other aspect.
[00:18:14.22 - 00:18:16.01] I think that's more honest.
[00:18:16.03 - 00:18:17.14] That is for sure, yeah.
[00:18:17.14 - 00:18:23.13] And also realizing that most of the time, your strength is the company's weakness.
[00:18:23.13 - 00:18:28.03] So for example, if you're very good in sales, probably your sales department
[00:18:28.03 - 00:18:30.05] isn't that strong without you.
[00:18:30.13 - 00:18:36.11] While you're building other elements that you are not that fond of, much more and
[00:18:36.11 - 00:18:40.00] better, because you know you do not want to do that yourself.
[00:18:40.02 - 00:18:41.11] So, yeah.
[00:18:41.11 - 00:18:42.18] Good point.
[00:18:44.12 - 00:18:46.01] What do you think about
[00:18:47.06 - 00:18:50.15] developing our leadership style as leaders?
[00:18:50.15 - 00:18:56.14] So where does an entrepreneur go to figure out what is their leadership style?
[00:18:56.14 - 00:18:59.23] Or you talked about leadership development, where does a leader go to
[00:18:59.23 - 00:19:01.10] figure out what's their own style?
[00:19:01.10 - 00:19:05.02] Because again we have the wrong role models out there.
[00:19:05.05 - 00:19:10.05] Yeah, I think we can actually, I don't know if I would phrase it as the wrong
[00:19:10.10 - 00:19:20.17] role models, but I think looking at others and really mirroring what is really
[00:19:20.17 - 00:19:25.17] something that I would like to do, so not focusing on, okay, this has made him
[00:19:25.17 - 00:19:29.18] successful or her successful, so that is what I'm going to do as well, but more
[00:19:29.18 - 00:19:31.21] like what can I learn from...
[00:19:31.23 - 00:19:36.13] elements, what are elements that are resonating with me and that would be great
[00:19:36.13 - 00:19:37.14] for me as well.
[00:19:37.14 - 00:19:44.22] But to answer your question, I think it's quite difficult to find the right place
[00:19:44.22 - 00:19:49.07] for you to find out who you are and what type of leader you are and what you really
[00:19:49.07 - 00:19:53.18] love to do, because there are a lot of tests around in the world that are not
[00:19:53.18 - 00:19:59.06] scientifically backed, that are, you know, I think that if you do a test it should be
[00:19:59.06 - 00:20:01.10] a bit like a photo you take.
[00:20:02.06 - 00:20:07.02] And if you take a photo now, and you would take a photo of me two years from now, I
[00:20:07.02 - 00:20:08.08] will be a bit different.
[00:20:08.08 - 00:20:13.16] I would probably have more gray hair, but you still recognize me as me.
[00:20:13.20 - 00:20:19.07] And there are a lot of tests outside in the world that can give you a complete
[00:20:19.07 - 00:20:22.05] different view of yourself two years later.
[00:20:22.05 - 00:20:26.19] That means that they're not so in depth, really looking at who you are.
[00:20:26.19 - 00:20:27.18] That's more...
[00:20:27.22 - 00:20:32.18] also influenced by how you felt that day that you filled in the test, for example.
[00:20:33.02 - 00:20:38.21] I think if leaders would adopt the fact that it's very interesting to investigate
[00:20:38.21 - 00:20:43.21] yourself and to take yourself as a research object and to take some tests,
[00:20:43.21 - 00:20:47.19] some scores and really reflect on it, do I recognize that?
[00:20:48.01 - 00:20:52.04] And there are some in the world that are very good.
[00:20:52.21 - 00:20:57.04] I think also going to leadership courses, we are both
[00:20:57.04 - 00:21:01.04] a member of the Entrepreneurs' Organization, which is a peer-to-peer
[00:21:01.04 - 00:21:03.08] network for founders.
[00:21:03.10 - 00:21:07.09] I think that's very interesting because you meet a lot of different people and via
[00:21:07.09 - 00:21:15.17] that organization, I for example, been to Harvard Business School and did a few days
[00:21:15.17 - 00:21:18.03] on entrepreneurial strategy.
[00:21:18.03 - 00:21:22.22] And I learned a lot about myself, but also about different leaders, different styles,
[00:21:23.00 - 00:21:26.10] and then being in the surrounding with other entrepreneurs.
[00:21:26.14 - 00:21:31.11] entrepreneurs that have other styles also, you learn a lot from looking to others and
[00:21:31.11 - 00:21:33.12] thinking, hmm, that's not me.
[00:21:33.21 - 00:21:35.17] And hmm, that's me.
[00:21:36.10 - 00:21:38.06] So I think that will be what I would do.
[00:21:38.06 - 00:21:45.10] So a combination of tests, a combination of a little bit mentorship, mentoring, and
[00:21:45.10 - 00:21:49.17] also really, really good education, investing into yourself.
[00:21:50.01 - 00:21:55.02] I always say the development of the company is the development of the founder.
[00:21:55.02 - 00:22:00.02] So the more you develop yourself, the better probably your organization will be.
[00:22:00.13 - 00:22:09.10] And how do you develop the leaders within your company to not create a gap between
[00:22:09.10 - 00:22:10.07] you and them?
[00:22:10.11 - 00:22:12.22] I am not a saint, unfortunately.
[00:22:13.07 - 00:22:17.16] I would have loved to be a saint and to say, okay, I have here the formula and I
[00:22:17.16 - 00:22:20.03] do everything really, really well.
[00:22:20.09 - 00:22:26.13] I think it starts, in my point of view, by hiring from the beginning, at least 40% of
[00:22:26.13 - 00:22:32.12] the people that you hire with a potential to really grow into the company.
[00:22:32.12 - 00:22:36.13] So at least one, at least two levels up,
[00:22:36.13 - 00:22:40.17] they need to be able to get there and you want a few people to hire every year
[00:22:40.17 - 00:22:45.03] that really, really have potential to lead your company.
[00:22:45.05 - 00:22:46.01] So that's first.
[00:22:46.01 - 00:22:52.14] Then you have a talent group, a talented group, then involving a lot of people into
[00:22:52.14 - 00:22:57.06] your company already from the beginning in the, that they also take a bit of
[00:22:57.06 - 00:23:03.02] ownership in, you know, the strategy into what is needed is an opportunity to
[00:23:03.15 - 00:23:09.05] to help them and coach them develop their skills to, how do you think about that?
[00:23:10.20 - 00:23:18.05] What kind of decisions do we need to make if the market is going down or up, or if
[00:23:18.05 - 00:23:24.15] clients are running away or not getting engagement from the whole team around that?
[00:23:24.15 - 00:23:27.16] Then I think formal education is very important.
[00:23:27.16 - 00:23:32.18] And I have seen the big difference between cheaper education
[00:23:32.18 - 00:23:40.23] in institutes that are not so renowned or not so really well, most of the time not
[00:23:41.00 - 00:23:47.12] helping a lot in the business and also formal education only works if you need
[00:23:47.12 - 00:23:51.13] that what you learn immediately in your work.
[00:23:52.05 - 00:24:00.09] So only let people go to formal education by which I mean going to institutions or
[00:24:00.09 - 00:24:02.15] at the moment there's a lot of online
[00:24:02.15 - 00:24:07.03] available also in a lot of learning platforms where you really can get great
[00:24:07.10 - 00:24:10.19] learning, but it should be something that you are using.
[00:24:10.19 - 00:24:15.15] Great example of course if you do an Excel course but you do not use the Excel for
[00:24:15.15 - 00:24:18.04] two months after it's wasted money.
[00:24:18.10 - 00:24:23.03] And then in the work you need to have a good feedback system where you really get
[00:24:23.03 - 00:24:29.22] people to throw them into the deep water and help them not to drown.
[00:24:30.07 - 00:24:35.01] But they really need to feel sometimes that they're almost drowning to learn what
[00:24:35.01 - 00:24:36.09] needs to be learned.
[00:24:37.02 - 00:24:41.11] And I think that combination, and it's often with, if you want to learn something
[00:24:41.11 - 00:24:45.02] really good, it's a combination of factors that is needed.
[00:24:45.19 - 00:24:54.14] Then another element is making sure that you are, again, I focus on that a lot, not
[00:24:54.20 - 00:24:57.01] so easy with people that are not
[00:24:57.07 - 00:25:00.21] having the right behavior or the right performance in your company.
[00:25:00.21 - 00:25:06.08] Because if you want to really develop leaders in a good way and they work with
[00:25:06.08 - 00:25:11.21] other leaders that are having behavior like aggressive behavior or not the right
[00:25:11.21 - 00:25:15.16] core values, it's influence the best leaders as well.
[00:25:15.17 - 00:25:19.23] Maybe they leave or they think, Oh, apparently that works.
[00:25:20.09 - 00:25:25.01] And apparently I should show that that's kind of behavior as well.
[00:25:25.06 - 00:25:26.19] And you do not want to signal that.
[00:25:26.19 - 00:25:28.06] Is that an answer to your question?
[00:25:28.06 - 00:25:29.11] It is, it is.
[00:25:29.18 - 00:25:39.01] And then when the staff member or the leader takes the course, comes back to
[00:25:39.01 - 00:25:41.23] work, is that the end or is that the beginning?
[00:25:42.01 - 00:25:50.06] So how do you like, how to use that as an opportunity for
[00:25:51.06 - 00:25:54.16] the learning to be hands-on, how to use that as an opportunity for the learning to
[00:25:54.16 - 00:25:58.10] be shared and more collective, if it can be?
[00:25:59.00 - 00:26:04.14] So one thing that works is you come back from such a course and most of the time we
[00:26:04.14 - 00:26:10.08] have a sort of a, how do you say that in English, a sort of a list like this is
[00:26:10.08 - 00:26:14.03] what I want to change in my behavior and this is what I want to change in my
[00:26:14.03 - 00:26:17.19] organization and this is what I want to change within other people.
[00:26:18.00 - 00:26:18.20] And then
[00:26:18.20 - 00:26:23.06] after a week you're disappointed because you didn't change yourself that much as
[00:26:23.06 - 00:26:27.17] you thought the organization does not move at all and others are not interested
[00:26:27.17 - 00:26:31.08] because they think okay you've been on that course but I haven't and I'm not
[00:26:31.08 - 00:26:35.07] interested you know so then you're disappointed a week two weeks three weeks
[00:26:35.07 - 00:26:39.20] and nothing happens it's very interesting to pay a bit of attention to what your
[00:26:39.20 - 00:26:45.20] intention is to share that with colleagues to share that with a mentor or your boss.
[00:26:45.20 - 00:26:50.08] And to really go over it, you know, like every two weeks, have a coffee, just, you
[00:26:50.08 - 00:26:55.10] know, 15 minutes, and to talk about what was your intention when you came back and
[00:26:55.10 - 00:26:57.02] why is it so hard?
[00:26:57.14 - 00:27:04.17] Because if it was easy, and I think we should be much more, how do you say that,
[00:27:04.17 - 00:27:09.12] nice to ourselves, that if it was so easy, we would have done it all.
[00:27:09.12 - 00:27:15.09] You know, if it was easy to change our behavior, if it was easy to be the best leaders
[00:27:15.16 - 00:27:21.09] we wouldn't have these engagement figures of 14% or less.
[00:27:21.09 - 00:27:25.19] You know, if it was easy to become a great leader, we would have totally different
[00:27:25.19 - 00:27:31.14] politics, totally different companies, totally different burnout rates.
[00:27:31.14 - 00:27:35.10] So apparently it is very difficult.
[00:27:35.15 - 00:27:42.11] So acknowledging that it's not easy and then taking that as a challenge for
[00:27:42.11 - 00:27:44.20] yourself and for the company,
[00:27:46.03 - 00:27:50.16] like, okay interesting why is it so difficult for me?
[00:27:51.21 - 00:27:56.05] I thought I want to become a servant leader and the only thing what I do when
[00:27:56.05 - 00:28:01.10] I'm stressed is yelling at people and say you need to do this and why are you so
[00:28:01.10 - 00:28:02.23] stupid to do that?
[00:28:03.09 - 00:28:09.22] So then to investigate why is it so difficult for me and not pushing this to
[00:28:09.22 - 00:28:15.04] others that they are not doing anything and then going inside yourself maybe with
[00:28:15.04 - 00:28:16.02] some help.
[00:28:16.04 - 00:28:17.03] What is it so difficult?
[00:28:17.03 - 00:28:19.01] What do I need actually?
[00:28:19.01 - 00:28:20.08] What happened?
[00:28:20.08 - 00:28:22.01] Analyze, what happened?
[00:28:23.19 - 00:28:25.16] What happened inside me?
[00:28:25.20 - 00:28:26.17] What was triggered?
[00:28:26.17 - 00:28:30.20] Most of the time you're so triggered about our youth, through our youth, youth.
[00:28:30.20 - 00:28:33.09] What nothing has to do with the work environment.
[00:28:33.09 - 00:28:36.13] And I think investigated that makes us humans.
[00:28:36.13 - 00:28:42.01] And that makes you also a better leader if you understand what happens inside yourself.
[00:28:42.01 - 00:28:45.18] It's also easier to be compassionate
[00:28:45.18 - 00:28:46.20] with others.
[00:28:46.21 - 00:28:49.03] Than with ourselves, right?
[00:28:50.02 - 00:28:55.21] You mentioned to me earlier, before starting the recording, you're proud that
[00:28:55.21 - 00:29:01.23] at VIE, at your company, people can reflect on themselves.
[00:29:03.02 - 00:29:03.18] Tell us more.
[00:29:03.18 - 00:29:08.12] So, this last point, what I mentioned, you know, like, okay, what does happen with me?
[00:29:08.12 - 00:29:13.23] If you act like this in a meeting, I have the feeling that you do not back me up,
[00:29:13.23 - 00:29:17.18] that you let me, you know, that you push me away.
[00:29:20.08 - 00:29:23.21] And I know that might be not your intention, but that is happening with me.
[00:29:24.16 - 00:29:29.07] And then being able to have a conversation about that is really helpful.
[00:29:29.07 - 00:29:34.01] And I think that's one of the things that I'm very proud of that also in our
[00:29:34.01 - 00:29:39.22] selection process, we have questions in which we test if people can look back on
[00:29:39.22 - 00:29:44.16] themselves and think like, okay, there I've learned a lot, you know, or there I
[00:29:44.16 - 00:29:48.18] made a decision that from hindsight, always easier than from the beginning.
[00:29:48.18 - 00:29:53.22] Uh, I could have done differently and we want people that
[00:29:54.08 - 00:30:01.22] what I said, have an interest or at least, you know, they say there's a crack in
[00:30:01.22 - 00:30:04.04] everything that's where the light comes in.
[00:30:04.04 - 00:30:08.14] And at least I want a little crack in your ego to see that you're okay with
[00:30:08.14 - 00:30:16.03] investigating your ego and to investigate like, okay, I have a little crack in this
[00:30:16.03 - 00:30:18.16] and I want to understand why this happens.
[00:30:18.16 - 00:30:21.19] And I think that really improves the world in the end.
[00:30:21.20 - 00:30:22.22] If we learn
[00:30:22.22 - 00:30:29.17] in our work, you know, to have meaningful work if we learn to receive feedback and
[00:30:29.17 - 00:30:35.18] to not think like who are you to say this to me or look at yourself, you're doing
[00:30:35.18 - 00:30:37.00] this wrong yourself as well.
[00:30:37.00 - 00:30:40.16] But if we really would be able to say, okay, you say this to me, is there any
[00:30:40.16 - 00:30:46.11] valuable point in, is there something that I would like to change or to develop
[00:30:46.11 - 00:30:47.13] myself in?
[00:30:48.03 - 00:30:51.13] I think that would be so much better for the world.
[00:30:51.22 - 00:31:01.15] I was recently talking with a friend who is very much self-aware, but very much,
[00:31:02.17 - 00:31:04.18] maybe a little bit overconfident.
[00:31:04.22 - 00:31:11.13] And she said, I know exactly who I am and I don't need to learn anything new about myself.
[00:31:12.11 - 00:31:15.21] And I, at that point, I didn't know how to react.
[00:31:16.22 - 00:31:22.17] Because I'm fundamentally, and like the sign says behind me, I'm always learning,
[00:31:22.17 - 00:31:28.04] I'm always trying to figure out what childhood programming there is hidden
[00:31:28.04 - 00:31:32.01] inside my brain that I need to re-examine and challenge.
[00:31:32.13 - 00:31:36.13] And I was there with a person that was saying, well, I don't want to do that,
[00:31:36.13 - 00:31:44.07] which is fine with me, but then I feel that it's so much of a potential that is wasted.
[00:31:44.07 - 00:31:47.16] Yeah, I can totally relate with that.
[00:31:47.16 - 00:31:55.00] So my first, if someone says that to me, I come back to my point, there's a crack in everything.
[00:31:55.17 - 00:31:57.15] That's where the light comes in.
[00:31:57.15 - 00:31:58.16] Then there's no crack.
[00:31:58.16 - 00:32:03.03] You know, you have, you've said, this is my ego, this is my system, I know myself.
[00:32:03.03 - 00:32:08.17] I think if you look back at where we came from when we were a baby up till now, and
[00:32:08.17 - 00:32:12.01] you look back, we're changing
[00:32:12.01 - 00:32:13.01] all the time, isn't it?
[00:32:13.01 - 00:32:19.10] The environment is changing, we're getting older, we learn new things, so only by
[00:32:19.10 - 00:32:22.02] that, you already know that we're changing.
[00:32:22.07 - 00:32:29.04] Things can happen to you, so I became, I had a visual impairment that is really
[00:32:29.04 - 00:32:34.11] making my work more difficult to do, and that is changing me as a person, and for
[00:32:34.11 - 00:32:37.21] what I can do or not can do, and that is for everyone.
[00:32:38.10 - 00:32:41.06] So if someone says, I know everything,
[00:32:41.12 - 00:32:47.13] Sometimes I think maybe I need to wait a bit because there is no opening in that
[00:32:47.13 - 00:32:52.23] person to really, yeah, to be open to something else.
[00:32:52.23 - 00:32:55.15] And most of the time it's a defensive structure.
[00:32:55.17 - 00:32:59.02] So it's something that we need to hold ourselves together.
[00:32:59.06 - 00:33:05.16] So I feel more compassionate or a compassion for that person that I think
[00:33:05.16 - 00:33:10.08] and being interested, why is it that you need such an armor
[00:33:10.08 - 00:33:17.06] around you, such a face, what is it that is so difficult for you to let go a bit of
[00:33:17.06 - 00:33:24.09] that armor, to open up a bit and to understand that we are such small
[00:33:24.09 - 00:33:29.01] creatures on this world, it is impossible to say I know everything about myself
[00:33:29.01 - 00:33:34.04] because I think it's a learning process until we die to find out who we are and
[00:33:34.04 - 00:33:36.20] most of the time we're only awareness that
[00:33:37.21 - 00:33:41.10] Yeah, where we feel things and it's different all the time.
[00:33:41.18 - 00:33:50.14] So I would then probably try to ask some questions to figure out why is it needed?
[00:33:50.14 - 00:33:58.08] But it's then more my interest in a human not to convince her or him to open up, but
[00:33:58.08 - 00:34:03.13] more for me to understand why is this needed for this person?
[00:34:03.21 - 00:34:10.08] We had in an event a year and a half ago in EO Unlimited Santorini, we had a
[00:34:12.12 - 00:34:18.11] paraplegic, I forget his name now, a guy who was born with no hands or legs.
[00:34:19.16 - 00:34:24.02] And he was saying, look, everyone has a disability.
[00:34:24.17 - 00:34:27.05] It's just mine is so evident.
[00:34:27.06 - 00:34:31.05] We all have our superpowers and our super weaknesses, if you like.
[00:34:31.06 - 00:34:36.18] But for some people it's very evident and actually admire that we started and you
[00:34:36.18 - 00:34:43.02] started with your visual impairment and I hope more people start by
[00:34:43.02 - 00:34:49.07] being vulnerable even in, you know, first introductions.
[00:34:49.09 - 00:34:59.10] Yeah, and then actually it is, I really like to listen to you Andreas, because now
[00:35:00.08 - 00:35:05.05] in this time, in this moment of time when you say being vulnerable, I realize we are
[00:35:05.05 - 00:35:08.06] vulnerable, everyone is vulnerable.
[00:35:08.15 - 00:35:16.06] So we do not even need to start with it, we only need to open up a bit so that we
[00:35:16.07 - 00:35:17.16] let go of our armor.
[00:35:17.16 - 00:35:18.12] Because
[00:35:18.21 - 00:35:23.14] We have built that probably in the time that it was needed, but now we're growing up.
[00:35:23.14 - 00:35:28.08] And I think the beauty in growing up is that you can also scratch a bit of the
[00:35:28.08 - 00:35:33.15] armor every day again and again, a little bit off, because you're growing up and you
[00:35:33.15 - 00:35:35.16] can stand on your own feet.
[00:35:35.17 - 00:35:39.12] And it actually makes it easier to connect with other people.
[00:35:39.14 - 00:35:44.21] And if we think about the technology development that is going so fast, so
[00:35:44.21 - 00:35:48.13] rapid scaling technology with artificial intelligence.
[00:35:51.01 - 00:35:55.03] It will be easier for technology to do a lot of the analysis that we've done.
[00:35:55.03 - 00:36:00.18] Everything that we needed the armor for, for example, to be able to perform that,
[00:36:00.19 - 00:36:05.07] is probably being taken over by technology or robots.
[00:36:05.07 - 00:36:12.00] And what they cannot do and will never be able to do is to make the real human connection.
[00:36:12.00 - 00:36:15.06] And the creativity in our brains.
[00:36:15.06 - 00:36:16.00] And the...
[00:36:16.01 - 00:36:16.17] Yeah.
[00:36:16.21 - 00:36:21.20] connecting the dots in a totally different way that's never been done before, but
[00:36:21.20 - 00:36:27.18] that's only possible if we can drop down a bit of our armor, if every day we scratch
[00:36:27.18 - 00:36:29.02] a little bit off.
[00:36:29.02 - 00:36:33.17] And you cannot do that when you're six, but you can do that when you're 30.
[00:36:33.18 - 00:36:39.09] But you're still carrying the armor that you developed when you were six.
[00:36:39.11 - 00:36:40.07] Indeed.
[00:36:40.13 - 00:36:42.19] But you can look at it differently.
[00:36:43.05 - 00:36:47.16] You can look with compassion to it and think like, okay, now I'm again triggered
[00:36:47.18 - 00:36:57.00] and I want to put that on again, but let me stay in this moment and feel what needs
[00:36:57.00 - 00:36:59.23] to be felt to get to know myself again a little bit better.
[00:36:59.23 - 00:37:03.03] And start punching holes through it so that the light can get through, like you
[00:37:03.03 - 00:37:07.05] said, or like Leonard Cohen said.
[00:37:07.05 - 00:37:10.00] So your visual impairment, how did it change you?
[00:37:10.00 - 00:37:13.19] How did you have to adapt at work or personally?
[00:37:14.13 - 00:37:16.03] I'm still in it, Andreas.
[00:37:16.03 - 00:37:19.04] It started six, seven years ago with one eye.
[00:37:19.04 - 00:37:25.03] Then with one eye, if one eye drops out, I have one eye that is moving and a laughing
[00:37:25.03 - 00:37:28.12] mirror picture it gives me.
[00:37:29.18 - 00:37:31.15] One eye is still okay-ish.
[00:37:31.15 - 00:37:34.21] You can very well function with one eye.
[00:37:35.11 - 00:37:38.14] Two years later, the other eye, same problem.
[00:37:38.20 - 00:37:43.06] That made me impaired, I think you say in English.
[00:37:44.23 - 00:37:49.22] And it changed me, I think, because I had to adjust my company.
[00:37:49.22 - 00:37:53.05] So I couldn't be the leader I wanted to be.
[00:37:54.04 - 00:37:57.01] I have weeks that I cannot read anything.
[00:37:57.06 - 00:38:01.19] I have days where everything is shaking in my vision.
[00:38:02.12 - 00:38:07.18] There are days that are very well working, that I have the experience that I see like
[00:38:07.18 - 00:38:08.19] other people.
[00:38:09.01 - 00:38:13.11] I know it isn't, because sometimes I miss elements in my field.
[00:38:14.13 - 00:38:19.03] It changed me because I had to let go of my identity.
[00:38:19.03 - 00:38:23.10] I was a party animal, you know me from that time still.
[00:38:23.20 - 00:38:25.19] I really liked to party.
[00:38:25.19 - 00:38:27.21] I really liked to work hard.
[00:38:27.21 - 00:38:35.22] I really liked to work in the evening to get new ideas out when nobody interferes
[00:38:35.22 - 00:38:37.05] with my time.
[00:38:37.17 - 00:38:39.00] And I had to...
[00:38:39.09 - 00:38:40.22] see that is not possible anymore.
[00:38:40.22 - 00:38:45.05] I cannot work in the evening anymore too late because my view is not good enough.
[00:38:47.05 - 00:38:49.16] So it made me more vulnerable.
[00:38:50.03 - 00:38:52.01] I have to change my leadership style.
[00:38:52.01 - 00:38:57.08] So being more coachy instead of saying, you need to do this or you need to do that.
[00:38:57.22 - 00:39:02.19] I had to dive into myself much more, still a process I'm working on.
[00:39:03.12 - 00:39:06.06] I try to be nicer to myself.
[00:39:06.06 - 00:39:08.18] So not only taking care of myself to
[00:39:08.23 - 00:39:12.19] survive but also taking care of myself to really feel good.
[00:39:13.04 - 00:39:14.23] That's a totally different thing.
[00:39:16.23 - 00:39:28.00] I think I became more aware of this moment in time, not really living in the future.
[00:39:30.05 - 00:39:31.20] Yeah, I think that.
[00:39:31.20 - 00:39:35.17] And if that's your super weakness, what's your super strength or superpower?
[00:39:35.19 - 00:39:45.12] I think my superpower is that I am very good in having a conceptual thought, so
[00:39:45.12 - 00:39:52.19] like either a book or a new theory or a new scientific report or new technology
[00:39:52.19 - 00:39:57.11] and to think about what does that mean for our day to day life.
[00:39:57.11 - 00:40:02.17] So if I read this book, what does that mean if I want to implement that in the
[00:40:02.17 - 00:40:04.20] company, what steps do I need to make?
[00:40:05.18 - 00:40:06.18] What is needed for that.
[00:40:06.18 - 00:40:12.10] And I noticed that it is for me very easy, that I can get immediately ideas how to
[00:40:12.10 - 00:40:16.03] get that done, while for others that is very difficult.
[00:40:16.13 - 00:40:21.13] So I think that is one thing, and the other thing I would say my energy.
[00:40:21.13 - 00:40:25.01] People like to work with that, I think.
[00:40:25.01 - 00:40:28.06] And I would add one third one, which I've shared with you before, your social
[00:40:28.06 - 00:40:34.13] empathy, because when we were in the same class together, you had everyone, all 40
[00:40:34.13 - 00:40:37.01] people, send a postcard a week...
[00:40:38.13 - 00:40:38.19] Yeah.
[00:40:38.19 - 00:40:45.12] to the organizer to Polo and you had this all synchronized so that there was a
[00:40:45.12 - 00:40:51.08] postcard leaving one country to arrive to Polo in the Netherlands every single week.
[00:40:51.20 - 00:40:57.03] So that's a you know that's a person with a huge heart there so I have a lot of respect.
[00:40:57.03 - 00:40:58.16] I really thought that Polo did
[00:40:58.16 - 00:41:04.22] a really great job and I thought it was a nice idea and if I then have that idea
[00:41:04.22 - 00:41:07.05] then I make sure that I finish it.
[00:41:07.05 - 00:41:11.06] But of course everyone worked with it because you needed to send the cards.
[00:41:11.06 - 00:41:13.17] But I reminded everyone every week.
[00:41:13.17 - 00:41:14.22] Yeah that's true.
[00:41:16.00 - 00:41:19.05] So Wendy, I know you're limited in time.
[00:41:19.05 - 00:41:28.13] And so as we wrap the recording, what parting words would you like to leave
[00:41:28.13 - 00:41:33.08] leaders out there with like, how should we rethink culture?
[00:41:33.08 - 00:41:36.04] How should we be more intentional about culture?
[00:41:36.04 - 00:41:41.02] Well, maybe I may say a few things about the HR, human resources, people and
[00:41:41.02 - 00:41:42.11] culture field.
[00:41:42.19 - 00:41:46.23] Because what I now see is that a lot of leaders prioritize what they do in that
[00:41:46.23 - 00:41:52.10] field based on their experience of former employers, where they have worked or what
[00:41:52.10 - 00:41:54.21] employees ask you to do.
[00:41:54.22 - 00:42:00.14] And I think there is a real structure that is needed to build up a great organization
[00:42:00.14 - 00:42:03.00] that starts with hiring the right people.
[00:42:03.06 - 00:42:08.02] Focus on the fact that you are really having a great employee experience to get
[00:42:08.02 - 00:42:13.14] into the company and then make sure that the onboarding is well delivered.
[00:42:13.14 - 00:42:17.21] But in the beginning, you know, with four, five, six people, it doesn't really matter
[00:42:17.21 - 00:42:21.17] if that is really all very well done or not.
[00:42:21.17 - 00:42:28.15] So prioritizing to doing the right notches with your toolbox that you get into the HR
[00:42:28.15 - 00:42:30.18] field is really important.
[00:42:30.18 - 00:42:36.08] And I would love to invite leaders to learn more about that.
[00:42:36.08 - 00:42:39.06] And you can link with me on LinkedIn.
[00:42:39.06 - 00:42:41.00] You can say, OK, I'm now in this stage.
[00:42:41.00 - 00:42:44.23] I can send you like, OK, these should be your priorities right now.
[00:42:45.09 - 00:42:51.08] But really prioritize based on what is needed to scale your company and not on
[00:42:51.08 - 00:42:57.01] what you think yourself out of your experience from your former employers or
[00:42:57.01 - 00:42:58.01] what people ask you to do.
[00:42:58.02 - 00:43:00.06] And where can people read more about this?
[00:43:00.19 - 00:43:05.02] So in the book, of course, Scaling-ups & downs, Scale-ups & downs, it's called,
[00:43:05.02 - 00:43:06.05] Guide Your Organization.
[00:43:06.05 - 00:43:10.03] It's written by me and Gerrit de Jager, who made cartoons in it to make it a bit
[00:43:10.03 - 00:43:11.02] more fun.
[00:43:11.05 - 00:43:14.08] If you only read the cartoons, you get the main message as well.
[00:43:15.03 - 00:43:18.16] And there are, of course, I think it's also very interesting actually to read the
[00:43:18.16 - 00:43:22.10] book of the autobiography of Elon Musk.
[00:43:22.18 - 00:43:23.23] That's also very interesting.
[00:43:24.00 - 00:43:24.18] In what way?
[00:43:24.18 - 00:43:28.23] Because you said we shouldn't copy everything the...
[00:43:28.23 - 00:43:31.12] Because you can see what he does well and what he doesn't do well.
[00:43:31.12 - 00:43:35.18] And also to recognize that you're probably not the same leader and that you should
[00:43:35.18 - 00:43:39.14] not copy his behavior if you're not also the same person.
[00:43:39.14 - 00:43:40.13] Right, right.
[00:43:40.13 - 00:43:44.17] Which I tried to do and failed and thankfully I found my style.
[00:43:45.07 - 00:43:46.07] So thank you.
[00:43:46.07 - 00:43:48.12] Thank you, Wendy, for being with us.
[00:43:48.12 - 00:43:51.05] — Thank you so much, Andreas, it was really nice to be here. — Uh, I will read your book.
[00:43:51.05 - 00:44:02.12] Uh, I talk with a lot of people in HR and there's not enough of these scalable
[00:44:02.12 - 00:44:05.11] frameworks that
[00:44:06.04 - 00:44:09.04] give the practical tools you need at different stages.
[00:44:09.04 - 00:44:11.09] I absolutely love that.
[00:44:11.19 - 00:44:14.20] And thank you for everyone listening.
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[00:44:52.01 - 00:44:53.17] Perfect, thank you so much.