Rethink Culture

[00:00:07.13 - 00:00:10.18] Good morning, good afternoon, and good evening.
[00:00:10.18 - 00:00:15.02] Welcome to Rethink Culture, the podcast that shines a spotlight on leaders of
[00:00:15.02 - 00:00:17.21] businesses that people love to work for.
[00:00:17.22 - 00:00:21.00] My name is Andreas Konstantinou and I'm your host.
[00:00:21.00 - 00:00:24.19] And I'm also the founder of Rethink Culture, a company that helps businesses
[00:00:24.19 - 00:00:29.20] create happier, healthier workplace cultures by auditing their culture.
[00:00:29.20 - 00:00:36.04] Today, I have the pleasure of welcoming Gina Schaeffer, who has bought or built
[00:00:36.05 - 00:00:45.23] 15 hardware stores with 300 teammates. She is a passionate advocate of building
[00:00:45.23 - 00:00:50.00] business people have to work for she's going to tell us more about how she does
[00:00:50.00 - 00:00:56.13] that and the community projects she works for and with and she also loves to travel.
[00:00:56.13 - 00:01:01.21] She tells me she recently went to a long trip in South America, several countries
[00:01:01.21 - 00:01:05.21] and she also loves to create...
[00:01:05.21 - 00:01:09.06] her personal greeting cards.
[00:01:09.23 - 00:01:13.18] And with that, welcome to the Rethink Culture Podcast, Gina.
[00:01:13.18 - 00:01:15.09] Hi! Thank you for having me.
[00:01:15.10 - 00:01:19.05] So, I'll pick a not topic to start with.
[00:01:19.05 - 00:01:22.08] I'm really curious about your personal greeting cards.
[00:01:22.16 - 00:01:24.04] I love it.
[00:01:25.05 - 00:01:29.05] Well, I mean, you and I grew up in an era before email when you couldn't just thank
[00:01:29.05 - 00:01:30.05] people very quickly.
[00:01:30.05 - 00:01:35.07] And so I developed a love of writing homemade
[00:01:35.11 - 00:01:37.08] thank you cards when I was a kid.
[00:01:37.08 - 00:01:42.15] And as I grew up, that morphed into a relaxation opportunity for me because I
[00:01:42.15 - 00:01:46.11] could create things with my hands and I could put together cards and believe me,
[00:01:46.11 - 00:01:48.10] they were not attractive in the beginning.
[00:01:48.10 - 00:01:52.01] So that I could send thank you notes to people throughout the week.
[00:01:52.01 - 00:01:57.17] And it's just, it's morphed into something that's bigger and more professional, I
[00:01:57.17 - 00:01:58.04] guess, for me.
[00:01:58.04 - 00:02:03.06] What was a proud moment with one of those greeting cards?
[00:02:03.06 - 00:02:05.20] Yeah, so this is a very... I have a good one.
[00:02:06.04 - 00:02:11.03] About 15 years ago, I made a card and I sent it to a man that owned a hardware
[00:02:11.03 - 00:02:13.17] store that I really wanted to buy.
[00:02:13.17 - 00:02:14.23] But I didn't tell him that.
[00:02:14.23 - 00:02:17.10] I said, when I grow up, I wanna be you.
[00:02:17.11 - 00:02:19.01] Congratulations on your anniversary.
[00:02:19.01 - 00:02:21.18] I think it was the business's 35th anniversary or something.
[00:02:21.18 - 00:02:26.21] And I sent him that card and 12 years later he called me and he said, and I
[00:02:26.21 - 00:02:27.19] never met the man.
[00:02:27.19 - 00:02:29.21] He said, I've never gotten rid of that card.
[00:02:29.21 - 00:02:31.07] Do you want to buy my business?
[00:02:31.07 - 00:02:32.01] Wow!
[00:02:32.01 - 00:02:35.05] Yeah. And it was magic that moment.
[00:02:35.05 - 00:02:39.07] And so, I mean, if that doesn't tell you the power of handwriting something,
[00:02:39.07 - 00:02:41.01] I don't know what does.
[00:02:41.01 - 00:02:47.15] Yes, you can touch people's lives in a very, very unique way.
[00:02:47.15 - 00:02:50.14] So, Ace Hardware, what is it
[00:02:50.14 - 00:02:53.17] and how did you start on that path?
[00:02:53.22 - 00:02:57.12] So Ace Hardware is a purchasing cooperative in the United States.
[00:02:57.12 - 00:02:59.18] We don't have any hardware franchises.
[00:02:59.18 - 00:03:03.03] So you join the cooperative, you buy a share.
[00:03:03.03 - 00:03:08.10] And so I am an owner of the cooperative or the corporation itself.
[00:03:08.10 - 00:03:12.21] And I started my first location from scratch in 2003.
[00:03:12.21 - 00:03:19.13] And what prompted you, like what was the journey to start that co-op or the first door?
[00:03:19.13 - 00:03:24.17] So I lived in a neighborhood, I moved to a neighborhood in Washington DC called Logan Circle.
[00:03:24.17 - 00:03:28.15] Logan Circle had been destroyed by the riots when Martin Luther King was
[00:03:28.15 - 00:03:29.23] assassinated in the 60s.
[00:03:29.23 - 00:03:32.23] There were several cities in the United States that had some pretty significant
[00:03:32.23 - 00:03:36.03] riots and my neighborhood...
[00:03:36.03 - 00:03:40.10] I didn't live here at the time, was one of those neighborhoods and so the business
[00:03:40.10 - 00:03:41.22] owners left.
[00:03:41.22 - 00:03:45.06] The community members left in the neighborhood just really sat dormant for
[00:03:45.06 - 00:03:45.19] decades.
[00:03:45.19 - 00:03:47.07] The windows were boarded up.
[00:03:47.07 - 00:03:53.01] There were very few businesses and at some point like the late 80s early 90s, people
[00:03:53.01 - 00:03:55.01] started moving back to this neighborhood
[00:03:55.01 - 00:03:56.10] because it was cheap.
[00:03:56.10 - 00:03:58.02] We could buy houses here.
[00:03:58.02 - 00:03:59.15] Everything needed to be renovated.
[00:03:59.15 - 00:04:02.09] There was lots of opportunity to buy places to live.
[00:04:02.09 - 00:04:03.21] And I was very young.
[00:04:03.21 - 00:04:05.06] I didn't have a lot of money.
[00:04:05.06 - 00:04:10.06] I was working in the tech industry and was sort of low woman on the totem pole.
[00:04:10.06 - 00:04:13.22] And I moved to this neighborhood because I could afford to buy something here.
[00:04:13.22 - 00:04:17.00] And I got very involved in the Community Association.
[00:04:17.00 - 00:04:20.23] And the Community Association was made up of new people, most of them new, who had
[00:04:20.23 - 00:04:24.12] moved to this neighborhood, who wanted people to buy the houses and renovate them.
[00:04:24.12 - 00:04:26.21] Who wanted to encourage businesses to open.
[00:04:26.21 - 00:04:29.12] And then I got laid off from my tech job.
[00:04:29.12 - 00:04:32.07] And so I like to joke, I was a tech reject.
[00:04:32.07 - 00:04:34.15] It was the third time I had gotten laid off.
[00:04:34.15 - 00:04:38.08] And so I came home from work and I said, I'm going to open a hardware store.
[00:04:38.08 - 00:04:39.23] That's what this neighborhood wants.
[00:04:39.23 - 00:04:45.04] I didn't really know what I was doing, but I figured it out and the community was
[00:04:45.04 - 00:04:46.14] very supportive.
[00:04:46.14 - 00:04:52.08] So what made the store special given the neighborhood and the fact that it was kind
[00:04:52.08 - 00:04:55.07] of an unusual place to start the business?
[00:04:55.09 - 00:04:58.01] Well, I think in the beginning it was because there weren't any other
[00:04:58.01 - 00:04:58.20] businesses.
[00:04:58.20 - 00:05:04.23] There was a there was a period of just really explosive growth in 2003 when we
[00:05:04.23 - 00:05:05.10] opened up.
[00:05:05.10 - 00:05:09.07] There were about 10 businesses that opened in our retail strip at the same time,
[00:05:09.07 - 00:05:11.06] retail stores and restaurants.
[00:05:11.06 - 00:05:15.17] And so there was a group of us that had banded together that were really just
[00:05:15.17 - 00:05:16.14] supportive of each other.
[00:05:16.14 - 00:05:18.20] We supported each other's businesses.
[00:05:18.20 - 00:05:22.22] We talked about our businesses and each other's businesses to the community.
[00:05:22.22 - 00:05:25.07] We were involved in that community association.
[00:05:25.07 - 00:05:30.04] And for me, selling nuts and bolts and tools, paint was a big one.
[00:05:30.04 - 00:05:32.21] Everybody was taking the boards off their windows.
[00:05:32.22 - 00:05:37.18] There were seriously entire blocks that were still boarded up.
[00:05:37.18 - 00:05:41.03] And so if you were a homeowner moving into this neighborhood and you were taking the
[00:05:41.03 - 00:05:44.19] boards off your windows and you wanted to paint and renovate and all of those
[00:05:44.19 - 00:05:48.12] things, it was very convenient to have a local hardware store.
[00:05:48.12 - 00:05:50.18] And we filled that niche.
[00:05:50.22 - 00:05:53.23] And what is a community project to you?
[00:05:53.23 - 00:05:58.03] Because you speak a lot about community, community.
[00:05:58.06 - 00:06:04.15] And you spoke about the environment, but what about the people side?
[00:06:04.19 - 00:06:07.08] So how do you work with local people?
[00:06:07.10 - 00:06:11.15] We had a really, I call it a happy accident.
[00:06:11.15 - 00:06:15.01] So there were very few businesses in the community, but down the street there was a
[00:06:15.01 - 00:06:16.02] healthcare clinic.
[00:06:16.02 - 00:06:21.12] And that healthcare clinic had a recovery program for folks who were dealing with
[00:06:21.12 - 00:06:26.08] substance use addiction, alcoholism, drugs.
[00:06:26.20 - 00:06:31.22] And my first teammate, one of my very first teammates came from that program.
[00:06:31.22 - 00:06:38.19] And I hired him, not knowing anything about addiction or whether that meant he
[00:06:38.19 - 00:06:42.13] was going to be a good employee or a bad employee or anything.
[00:06:42.13 - 00:06:47.03] And I gave him a job and he told a friend at the clinic to come work there.
[00:06:47.03 - 00:06:48.14] Who told a friend, who told a friend.
[00:06:48.14 - 00:06:52.17] And the next thing I knew, we had all of these people working in our business that
[00:06:52.17 - 00:06:55.19] were in some stage of recovery in their lives.
[00:06:55.21 - 00:06:56.22] And...
[00:06:56.22 - 00:07:03.11] That's where our really strong culture of community began in the hardware store.
[00:07:03.11 - 00:07:06.23] I mean, we already had people coming in from the neighborhood every day to support
[00:07:06.23 - 00:07:09.10] us, to buy things and ask us questions.
[00:07:09.10 - 00:07:14.08] But then we also had from the inside out, people who were becoming a part of the
[00:07:14.08 - 00:07:19.11] community, re-engaging with maybe friends they had left behind, family members that
[00:07:19.11 - 00:07:22.09] they had had problems with.
[00:07:23.01 - 00:07:25.21] It was just a really special place.
[00:07:25.21 - 00:07:29.12] Did you have to support them any differently?
[00:07:29.12 - 00:07:35.15] The fact that they were off drugs and needed to keep honest to not going back to
[00:07:35.15 - 00:07:35.20] drugs.
[00:07:35.20 - 00:07:39.12] Did you have to support them any differently to your other employees?
[00:07:40.02 - 00:07:43.22] We supported them differently, but the one thing that we made sure we did was to
[00:07:43.22 - 00:07:46.13] create a culture of openness.
[00:07:46.13 - 00:07:50.10] So if you come to work, let's just say you have a newborn and you come to work here
[00:07:50.10 - 00:07:53.23] and you're going to talk about your child all day long and we're going to love that,
[00:07:53.23 - 00:07:54.03] right?
[00:07:54.03 - 00:07:57.08] We want to see pictures and we want to ask you how that makes you feel.
[00:07:57.08 - 00:08:00.17] And if you're stressed about it or if you're happy about it, why wouldn't we do
[00:08:00.17 - 00:08:04.21] the same for somebody who was dealing with some kind of addiction?
[00:08:04.21 - 00:08:09.20] Or my actual very first teammate came,
[00:08:09.23 - 00:08:12.06] had been in prison for 17 years.
[00:08:12.06 - 00:08:18.05] So I wanted people, everybody to come to work and feel comfortable talking about
[00:08:18.05 - 00:08:19.11] their past, if they wanted to.
[00:08:19.11 - 00:08:22.08] I mean, I didn't think it was any of my business, but if I was going to ask you
[00:08:22.08 - 00:08:26.18] about your child and how that made you feel, I wanted to ask the person working
[00:08:26.18 - 00:08:31.04] next to you who may have come from the recovery clinic, how that made them feel
[00:08:31.04 - 00:08:32.19] and how they were feeling today.
[00:08:32.19 - 00:08:36.23] And just being able to be open about those conversations leveled the playing field
[00:08:36.23 - 00:08:40.09] across the landscape of our team.
[00:08:40.19 - 00:08:44.04] I was super emotional about being a new business owner.
[00:08:44.04 - 00:08:48.01] I might come to work stressed or I might come to work super happy and I wanted them
[00:08:48.01 - 00:08:49.03] to care about that too.
[00:08:49.03 - 00:08:53.15] And so we created that environment where everybody could just talk about where they
[00:08:53.15 - 00:08:58.14] were, regardless of whether or not it was someplace most people would feel
[00:08:58.14 - 00:09:00.02] comfortable talking.
[00:09:00.02 - 00:09:05.16] So what I'm hearing is, whereas today most, or post-COVID, a lot of businesses
[00:09:05.16 - 00:09:10.23] are thinking about mental health because a lot of us went through mental health
[00:09:10.23 - 00:09:13.14] issues in the last few years.
[00:09:13.14 - 00:09:21.14] You started much earlier with people who came off, let's say, a tragic past or a
[00:09:21.14 - 00:09:26.19] childhood trauma or some addiction of sorts, or some imprisonment.
[00:09:26.19 - 00:09:28.10] And because
[00:09:28.10 - 00:09:33.04] they went through this very vulnerable and difficult phase in their lives, you gave
[00:09:33.04 - 00:09:36.09] them the space to be themselves.
[00:09:36.17 - 00:09:38.13] And that created your culture.
[00:09:38.18 - 00:09:41.18] Well, you know, the opposite of addiction is connection.
[00:09:41.18 - 00:09:44.04] You'll read that in a lot of places.
[00:09:44.04 - 00:09:49.02] And I think the connection that we made among the team in the hardware store
[00:09:49.02 - 00:09:54.23] helped create the culture where everybody could be connected and that we nurtured
[00:09:54.23 - 00:10:00.16] that connection through openness, through trust, through...
[00:10:00.16 - 00:10:04.05] you know, common core values that we created as a team.
[00:10:04.05 - 00:10:07.13] I didn't just say, hey, these are the values that we're going to live up to.
[00:10:07.13 - 00:10:11.18] We actually sat down as a team when we were young and said, these are the values
[00:10:11.18 - 00:10:17.23] that we want to hold dear to us and talk about and celebrate and use throughout the
[00:10:17.23 - 00:10:18.23] company.
[00:10:18.23 - 00:10:22.04] That was particularly important when we decided we were going to grow.
[00:10:22.04 - 00:10:27.18] So we had opened the first location in 2003, and then exactly two years later, we
[00:10:27.18 - 00:10:28.21] opened the second location.
[00:10:28.21 - 00:10:30.21] And then we opened one a year for
[00:10:30.21 - 00:10:35.15] years, which is a really fast trajectory for a small business like ours.
[00:10:35.15 - 00:10:39.12] I mean, if we were a big box with billions of dollars to spend, it wouldn't have been
[00:10:39.12 - 00:10:42.07] as difficult, but it was a big deal for us to grow that quickly.
[00:10:42.07 - 00:10:48.01] So we had to make sure that everybody was aligned with the same kind of core values
[00:10:48.01 - 00:10:51.19] because I wasn't going to be at the store all the time.
[00:10:51.19 - 00:10:54.21] My husband joined me after I opened that first location.
[00:10:54.21 - 00:10:57.03] So the we originally was the team.
[00:10:57.03 - 00:11:00.23] And then my husband and I as the owners, we
[00:11:01.06 - 00:11:03.04] weren't going to be everywhere all at once.
[00:11:03.04 - 00:11:04.13] That's not how we wanted to lead.
[00:11:04.13 - 00:11:08.02] And so we had to make sure that the leaders that we were putting in place were
[00:11:08.02 - 00:11:12.06] aligned with the values so that we could then create that rapid growth, which
[00:11:12.06 - 00:11:16.18] allowed us to hire more people and meet more community members and do all of the
[00:11:16.18 - 00:11:20.13] really amazing things that a small business can do on a main street in the
[00:11:20.13 - 00:11:21.15] community where it is.
[00:11:21.15 - 00:11:27.11] And then in 2007, we opened up in a city 30 miles away.
[00:11:27.11 - 00:11:30.11] And that was a big leap for us because that
[00:11:30.11 - 00:11:36.20] wasn't just, I'm gonna jump in my car or take a cab and pop over if there's
[00:11:36.20 - 00:11:39.09] something that's going on 30 miles away.
[00:11:39.09 - 00:11:46.06] So the manager who moved to Baltimore to manage that store really had to be aligned
[00:11:46.06 - 00:11:51.09] and understand what we were about and how he was going to play into that and
[00:11:51.09 - 00:11:55.16] compliment that and help grow it in another city 30 miles away.
[00:11:55.19 - 00:11:59.03] So you mentioned values and that would be my next question.
[00:11:59.03 - 00:12:04.13] But before we get there, in the pre-show we talked about two truths and one lie
[00:12:04.13 - 00:12:10.00] about you, which is my favorite way of getting the audience to know you a little
[00:12:10.00 - 00:12:10.23] better.
[00:12:11.00 - 00:12:14.16] So I think you have these already, do you?
[00:12:14.16 - 00:12:18.05] The two truths and one lie about yourself in no particular order, of course.
[00:12:18.05 - 00:12:20.19] Okay, no particular order.
[00:12:21.04 - 00:12:22.22] I...
[00:12:25.00 - 00:12:26.18] Speak Portuguese.
[00:12:27.07 - 00:12:34.12] I hired a drug dealer to manage one of my stores and I inherited my business from my
[00:12:34.12 - 00:12:35.13] father.
[00:12:35.15 - 00:12:41.05] Okay, so I think three is the most believable and two is the most...
[00:12:43.22 - 00:12:45.00] Outrageous.
[00:12:45.00 - 00:12:47.17] Yes, probably.
[00:12:47.17 - 00:12:50.01] So tell us more.
[00:12:50.09 - 00:12:53.01] So I did not inherit the business from my father.
[00:12:53.01 - 00:12:56.04] I kind of gave that away when I said I opened in Logan Circle.
[00:12:56.04 - 00:12:58.03] Hardware is a very generational business though.
[00:12:58.03 - 00:13:01.23] Lots of my friends are now taking over from their parents who started the store
[00:13:01.23 - 00:13:03.20] or their grandparents who started the store.
[00:13:03.20 - 00:13:10.21] I hired a guy who was on house arrest for selling drugs and I hired him when no one
[00:13:10.21 - 00:13:15.16] else would because he was on house arrest, which meant he had a bracelet on his ankle
[00:13:15.16 - 00:13:18.09] and he had certain times where he was allowed to leave his house.
[00:13:18.09 - 00:13:20.07] And I gave him a job because
[00:13:20.07 - 00:13:26.03] when he came in to meet me, he said, my landlord still wants to get paid, of
[00:13:26.03 - 00:13:26.16] course.
[00:13:26.16 - 00:13:31.16] The phone company keeps sending a phone bill, of course, but no one will hire me.
[00:13:31.16 - 00:13:36.01] And I thought, how as a society are we expecting somebody like him to ever change
[00:13:36.01 - 00:13:38.12] his life if...
[00:13:38.13 - 00:13:42.16] It takes a year to get a court date because the courts are so backed up and he
[00:13:42.16 - 00:13:44.07] still has to pay his bills.
[00:13:44.07 - 00:13:49.04] And so I gave him a job and he worked with us for 11 years and he was fantastic.
[00:13:49.04 - 00:13:54.14] So I have been called all sorts of crazy names for giving him a job but it worked
[00:13:54.14 - 00:13:59.12] out to my benefit and obviously to his and so that was my, that's my other truth.
[00:13:59.12 - 00:14:01.00] And I speak Portuguese.
[00:14:01.02 - 00:14:04.15] And have you seen that person change over the years?
[00:14:04.16 - 00:14:11.11] Yeah, so it's, you know, life is a journey and he has, he changed in a lot of ways,
[00:14:11.11 - 00:14:15.05] both good and bad, and continued on his trajectory.
[00:14:15.05 - 00:14:19.01] He doesn't work at my company anymore, but he works at another company that I helped
[00:14:19.01 - 00:14:20.04] start.
[00:14:20.16 - 00:14:25.21] And yeah, I mean, it's, again, going back to that connection.
[00:14:26.10 - 00:14:32.01] We gave him a place to go so that he could get clean from his own substance use
[00:14:32.01 - 00:14:38.10] issues and get through his court date and any kind of legal trouble that he had to
[00:14:38.10 - 00:14:39.09] get through.
[00:14:39.09 - 00:14:42.09] And I'd like to think that we made a difference, but he definitely made a
[00:14:42.09 - 00:14:43.00] difference in my life.
[00:14:43.00 - 00:14:45.02] He taught me a lot of things.
[00:14:45.04 - 00:14:53.15] Have you ever looked back at like, hires you've made from people with addiction or
[00:14:53.15 - 00:14:56.17] from troubled backgrounds and thought, am I making the right decision?
[00:14:56.17 - 00:14:58.07] Have you ever doubted yourself?
[00:14:58.07 - 00:14:59.11] Nope.
[00:14:59.23 - 00:15:01.05] I'm not even going to pretend.
[00:15:01.05 - 00:15:01.19] I've not.
[00:15:01.19 - 00:15:02.21] And I'll tell you why.
[00:15:02.21 - 00:15:09.19] The very first person who stole from us, you know, they're shoplifters in retail
[00:15:09.19 - 00:15:10.22] stores all the time.
[00:15:10.22 - 00:15:12.13] And so let's put that aside.
[00:15:12.13 - 00:15:18.07] But the very first employee that stole from us was a college educated, very
[00:15:18.07 - 00:15:20.07] articulate young man from the Midwest.
[00:15:20.07 - 00:15:23.03] He was 23 whose parents owned a business.
[00:15:23.03 - 00:15:26.19] And if you looked at him on paper, he was perfect.
[00:15:26.19 - 00:15:30.16] Nobody said, Gina, you're an idiot for hiring him.
[00:15:30.16 - 00:15:36.21] But if I would tell somebody about the gentleman that I just told you about, they
[00:15:36.21 - 00:15:38.08] would say, my gosh, you're an idiot.
[00:15:38.08 - 00:15:40.03] Why would you give him a job?
[00:15:40.06 - 00:15:46.10] But the kid from the Midwest who went to college was the one who stole $3,000 from me.
[00:15:46.10 - 00:15:54.09] And so, you know, I think that the moral of that story is everyone can do something wrong.
[00:15:54.15 - 00:15:59.19] Everyone can be a bad person at some point in their life or do something they regret
[00:15:59.19 - 00:16:01.07] at some point in their life.
[00:16:01.07 - 00:16:06.04] And we have to, particularly as business owners, as people who are hiring people,
[00:16:06.04 - 00:16:09.12] have to keep that into perspective when we are hiring.
[00:16:09.12 - 00:16:13.10] Because nobody is perfect and anybody can cause problems.
[00:16:13.10 - 00:16:18.01] And nobody judged me for hiring that kid, but everybody judged me for my, not
[00:16:18.01 - 00:16:21.11] everybody, lots of people judged me for some of the other hires.
[00:16:21.20 - 00:16:24.04] So I never regretted any of them.
[00:16:24.13 - 00:16:28.07] I’m hearing we should challenge our assumptions every time we have the
[00:16:28.07 - 00:16:33.19] opportunity to about who we hire and what we think about people we don't hire.
[00:16:35.03 - 00:16:38.09] So back to values, I know it's an important topic for you.
[00:16:38.09 - 00:16:44.12] What are some of the values that you use that make Ace Hardware different?
[00:16:44.23 - 00:16:48.07] So I think, and maybe you've done this in your own business, there have been three
[00:16:48.07 - 00:16:51.00] or four times throughout our history where we've hired a business coach.
[00:16:51.00 - 00:16:57.05] And that person has come in when we've had the need for a level of expertise that as
[00:16:57.05 - 00:17:00.07] kids in the hardware business, we didn't have or didn't, you know, we didn't know
[00:17:00.07 - 00:17:01.05] where to go.
[00:17:01.05 - 00:17:09.00] And probably 2006 -ish, we brought in a business coach to help us really document
[00:17:09.00 - 00:17:15.20] and hone down on the core values that we wanted to use the rest of our business life.
[00:17:15.20 - 00:17:18.13] And so we got the team involved.
[00:17:18.13 - 00:17:22.05] There were about seven of us that came together to talk about what we wanted to
[00:17:22.05 - 00:17:24.01] be when we grow up, essentially.
[00:17:24.01 - 00:17:29.16] And we decided on things like be a good neighbor because we think hardware stores
[00:17:29.16 - 00:17:32.04] are a very neighborly business.
[00:17:32.12 - 00:17:34.04] Always grow and share.
[00:17:34.04 - 00:17:37.15] Every day we should be learning something in the hardware store because we sell so
[00:17:37.15 - 00:17:38.13] many things.
[00:17:38.13 - 00:17:43.11] You can come in off the street and not know anything as a teammate and leave,
[00:17:43.20 - 00:17:52.02] and go on to school to become an engineer or an HVAC expert or a plumber because you
[00:17:52.02 - 00:17:56.08] get to work... a landscaper because you get to work with all kinds of really great
[00:17:56.08 - 00:17:58.04] products in the store.
[00:17:58.04 - 00:18:03.12] So I have a great example for the be a good neighbor value and how we use them.
[00:18:03.12 - 00:18:07.00] So I think lots of companies create core values and they put them in the
[00:18:07.00 - 00:18:10.17] newsletter, maybe the handbook, or maybe they put them on their website.
[00:18:10.18 - 00:18:13.04] But I think they need to be used all the time.
[00:18:13.04 - 00:18:14.07] You need to ask questions about them
[00:18:14.09 - 00:18:16.06] when you're hiring people.
[00:18:16.06 - 00:18:21.06] If I have to counsel you for doing a bad job, I need to talk about how... one of ours
[00:18:21.06 - 00:18:22.17] is communicate respectfully.
[00:18:22.17 - 00:18:26.12] If you're not speaking respectfully to our clients and I have to have a counseling
[00:18:26.12 - 00:18:29.14] conversation with you, I can bring up the core value.
[00:18:29.14 - 00:18:32.01] It's not just me making up things.
[00:18:32.06 - 00:18:35.11] And, you know, unfortunately people have to be terminated sometimes.
[00:18:35.11 - 00:18:38.19] If you're terminated and you violated a core value, you get to bring it up again.
[00:18:38.19 - 00:18:40.13] So it's always being used.
[00:18:40.13 - 00:18:43.20] So I was interviewing in 2000, shortly after this,
[00:18:43.20 - 00:18:46.07] actually, a very, very young boy.
[00:18:46.07 - 00:18:47.14] He was 14.
[00:18:47.16 - 00:18:50.23] I wasn't even sure if I was legally allowed to hire a 14-year-old.
[00:18:50.23 - 00:18:54.14] And he came into my business with a mentor because he was part of this local youth
[00:18:54.14 - 00:18:55.09] program.
[00:18:55.09 - 00:18:58.10] And every time I would ask, his name was Eddie, every time I would ask Eddie a
[00:18:58.10 - 00:19:00.16] question, the mentor would answer me.
[00:19:00.16 - 00:19:04.14] So it was kind of like I would say something to the kid and the adult would
[00:19:04.14 - 00:19:05.09] give me an answer.
[00:19:05.09 - 00:19:07.08] And I thought, well, I'm not hiring the adult.
[00:19:07.08 - 00:19:09.10] What am I going to do?
[00:19:09.22 - 00:19:12.18] So, and I was, you know, I was young and still learning.
[00:19:12.18 - 00:19:16.15] And so I said, Eddie, tell me about a time you were a good neighbor.
[00:19:16.19 - 00:19:21.06] And I said it to the adult because I was tired of, you know, the back and forth.
[00:19:21.06 - 00:19:24.02] So I actually asked the, hey, Eddie, I called him Eddie, Eddie, tell me about a
[00:19:24.02 - 00:19:24.21] time you were a good neighbor.
[00:19:24.21 - 00:19:29.08] And out of the corner of my eye, I saw Eddie light up.
[00:19:29.08 - 00:19:30.06] I mean, he jumped up.
[00:19:30.06 - 00:19:34.02] We were, the hardware store at my first location didn't have an office really.
[00:19:34.02 - 00:19:37.01] So we were sitting on the stairs in the plumbing department.
[00:19:37.01 - 00:19:39.00] He jumps up off the steps.
[00:19:39.00 - 00:19:39.22] He'd never had a job.
[00:19:39.22 - 00:19:43.04] He had never had a boss, but he had a neighbor who he loved.
[00:19:43.04 - 00:19:44.12] And it was an older woman.
[00:19:44.12 - 00:19:47.15] I don't remember what her name was, but he, you know, he helped carry her
[00:19:47.15 - 00:19:49.15] groceries like any good neighbor would.
[00:19:49.15 - 00:19:55.04] And Eddie started talking and I thought, this is somebody who would do really well
[00:19:55.04 - 00:19:56.17] learning in the hardware store.
[00:19:56.17 - 00:19:58.21] And he worked with us for almost 10 years
[00:19:58.21 - 00:20:00.11] before he went to college.
[00:20:01.11 - 00:20:08.22] So the core values work if you use them and if you use them often in a variety of
[00:20:08.22 - 00:20:14.06] ways and that's just one, I mean it's just kind of a silly example but it made a huge impact.
[00:20:14.06 - 00:20:18.14] If I hadn't thought to ask that question maybe I might have never hired him and
[00:20:18.14 - 00:20:21.19] then I would have missed out on 10 years of a really great employee.
[00:20:21.21 - 00:20:29.05] I've read a lot about values and my favorite approach for making sure values
[00:20:29.05 - 00:20:38.12] are metabolized, are actually made part of real life is one I read in the book
[00:20:38.12 - 00:20:46.10] Culture by Design from David Friedman where he takes each behavior...
[00:20:48.13 - 00:20:51.02] I think he calls them fundamentals.
[00:20:51.02 - 00:20:54.08] So he takes each behavior or fundamental.
[00:20:54.10 - 00:21:00.20] And the CEO starts by sending out an email with a story about that behavior from
[00:21:00.20 - 00:21:08.08] something that happened recently and is a testament to how that behavior bears
[00:21:08.08 - 00:21:12.14] really fruit in the organization.
[00:21:12.14 - 00:21:16.22] And the CEO does it for a few weeks and then somebody else takes over and then
[00:21:16.22 - 00:21:18.06] somebody else takes over.
[00:21:18.06 - 00:21:23.22] And over time you have the entire organization cycle through telling stories
[00:21:23.22 - 00:21:29.22] about all the different behaviors and how they manifest and how they're metabolized
[00:21:29.22 - 00:21:31.01] at work.
[00:21:31.01 - 00:21:40.11] And I find out this is so not just practical, but it humanizes values and
[00:21:40.11 - 00:21:44.22] drops them down to like, you know, ground levels where everyone can touch them and
[00:21:44.22 - 00:21:45.19] feel them.
[00:21:46.00 - 00:21:46.14] Yes.
[00:21:46.14 - 00:21:52.02] rather than putting them on the wall and wondering what this like team spirit and
[00:21:52.02 - 00:21:55.12] camaraderie mean, you know, in practice.
[00:21:55.19 - 00:22:00.11] Yeah, a long time ago somebody said that if I was going to create a bonus program
[00:22:00.11 - 00:22:05.02] for my team, that the bonus had to be treated like a game because we all become
[00:22:05.02 - 00:22:06.22] complacent with the rules.
[00:22:06.22 - 00:22:08.10] And so...
[00:22:08.10 - 00:22:09.05] That's what we do.
[00:22:09.05 - 00:22:14.10] We change our bonus plan every two years, every three years at the most, so that
[00:22:14.10 - 00:22:16.05] people, so that we don't get comfortable.
[00:22:16.05 - 00:22:21.00] We're always trying to be better because the KPIs have changed or the rules of the
[00:22:21.00 - 00:22:22.03] bonus have changed.
[00:22:22.03 - 00:22:25.02] And I think in that vein
[00:22:25.17 - 00:22:30.13] the values that we want to uphold and be known for also have to feel a little like
[00:22:30.13 - 00:22:34.01] a game and that you're constantly, and maybe it's more of a story than a game,
[00:22:34.01 - 00:22:39.00] but they need to be used in a variety of ways and those ways need to change to keep
[00:22:39.00 - 00:22:44.18] all of us on our toes and to remind all of us constantly why they're important and
[00:22:44.18 - 00:22:49.16] what they do for us, what they do for our customers.
[00:22:50.00 - 00:22:51.06] Yeah.
[00:22:51.15 - 00:22:59.01] We also talked earlier about how trust is so important.
[00:22:59.01 - 00:23:02.18] You also alluded to it because you're hiring people that others would simply
[00:23:02.18 - 00:23:04.00] not trust.
[00:23:04.06 - 00:23:11.09] So you talked about openness before and having people be their, you know,
[00:23:11.09 - 00:23:15.17] authentic selves and supporting each other and so on.
[00:23:15.17 - 00:23:20.06] But like, what are the ways that trust is
[00:23:20.11 - 00:23:27.06] brought forward like made true and real in your organization?
[00:23:27.15 - 00:23:31.11] I struggle with this sometimes because I think at my heart I'm a just very, very
[00:23:31.11 - 00:23:36.19] trusting person, which I think makes this conversation for somebody like me a lot easier.
[00:23:36.19 - 00:23:42.08] I think if you are inherently not trusting, it's much harder.
[00:23:42.08 - 00:23:48.03] However, when we opened up 30 miles away,
[00:23:48.03 - 00:23:54.03] We trusted the manager who we moved there to open that store because he had already
[00:23:54.03 - 00:23:59.20] lived, breathed, embodied, explained all of our core values in his current location
[00:23:59.20 - 00:24:03.04] that geographically was very close to us.
[00:24:03.04 - 00:24:08.08] So the expectation, once those were also part of his own core values, was that when
[00:24:08.08 - 00:24:13.06] he went 30 miles away to open a new store with us, those values would then be
[00:24:13.06 - 00:24:15.13] disseminated from him.
[00:24:15.13 - 00:24:18.10] And so we trusted him because
[00:24:18.10 - 00:24:23.23] we had given him the tools and we watched him embody those tools where we could
[00:24:23.23 - 00:24:26.02] physically see him, literally see him.
[00:24:26.02 - 00:24:30.15] So we knew that he understood them and lived them already before we sent him 30
[00:24:30.15 - 00:24:33.21] miles away to...
[00:24:33.21 - 00:24:37.01] you know, bring life to a new team there.
[00:24:37.01 - 00:24:42.12] I also realized early on that if I hired people I didn't trust, I'd hired the wrong people.
[00:24:42.12 - 00:24:46.10] Now, for someone who is trusting, that might mean that I'm going to hire all
[00:24:46.10 - 00:24:52.11] kinds of people that nobody else would, but most of us have a sense of whether or
[00:24:52.11 - 00:24:54.21] not somebody should be trusted.
[00:24:54.21 - 00:25:00.01] And if that sense goes off in my brain, I know that there's an issue because I do
[00:25:00.01 - 00:25:03.03] inherently trust most people, but...
[00:25:03.04 - 00:25:06.01] You have to, you have to know
[00:25:06.01 - 00:25:11.06] who you're hiring and why, you have to give them the tools they need to be successful
[00:25:11.06 - 00:25:16.15] because oftentimes we'll hire somebody and we'll just throw them into the job. Well,
[00:25:16.15 - 00:25:20.07] you stop trusting someone if they fall short in their job and if you haven't
[00:25:20.07 - 00:25:25.02] given them the tools to exceed like the expectations and the roadmap they are
[00:25:25.02 - 00:25:28.18] gonna fall short and then you won't trust them and so it's you know, you can see how
[00:25:28.18 - 00:25:35.17] this this cycle continues to to evolve and so one of my expressions that I learned
[00:25:35.17 - 00:25:36.05] early on
[00:25:36.05 - 00:25:38.17] was inspect what you expect.
[00:25:38.17 - 00:25:42.18] And that in retail is, I'll give you the easiest example.
[00:25:42.18 - 00:25:46.18] If I have products that need to go on the shelf and I ask someone to do it and I
[00:25:46.18 - 00:25:50.18] don't give them a roadmap or any explanation and they do it and I don't
[00:25:50.18 - 00:25:55.02] like it or they don't do it right and I don't go look at it, a whole host of other
[00:25:55.02 - 00:25:55.22] things could happen.
[00:25:55.22 - 00:25:58.22] Maybe they didn't put the prices on the products or maybe they put the wrong
[00:25:58.22 - 00:26:00.10] prices on the products.
[00:26:00.10 - 00:26:01.15] Well, that's...
[00:26:01.15 - 00:26:06.06] my problem as the leader for not going giving them the tools and then inspecting
[00:26:06.06 - 00:26:09.10] what I expected them to do in a timely manner.
[00:26:09.10 - 00:26:11.13] Now it's great to talk about this.
[00:26:11.13 - 00:26:14.03] It all sounds really easy when you and I are just having the conversation.
[00:26:14.03 - 00:26:19.08] In theory it's hard and it's you know we we tripped along the way we still screw up
[00:26:19.08 - 00:26:24.04] 21 years later but you have to think about
[00:26:24.09 - 00:26:29.09] how you're putting someone into the role and supporting them so that you can trust
[00:26:29.09 - 00:26:34.06] them to do the right job and that they feel comfortable doing it.
[00:26:34.07 - 00:26:41.10] This reminds me of this saying from an earlier guest, Arnie Malham, who
[00:26:41.10 - 00:26:49.16] basically, he outsources culture habits to anyone in his organization.
[00:26:49.16 - 00:26:56.13] So say you want to start a book club or a Sunday lunch with colleagues or whatever it is.
[00:26:56.13 - 00:27:04.05] He says, he gives anyone who wants to start a new project a checklist, a KPI,
[00:27:04.05 - 00:27:06.01] and permission to fail.
[00:27:06.04 - 00:27:11.10] He's very trusting from the outset, but he agrees on what are the steps that you need
[00:27:11.10 - 00:27:15.06] to build this and how do we know if it's successful?
[00:27:15.08 - 00:27:22.21] Because you have the ability to fail, but let's agree on what success means and how
[00:27:22.21 - 00:27:26.14] long are we going to try until we succeed.
[00:27:26.23 - 00:27:28.18] And everyone's on the same page.
[00:27:28.18 - 00:27:30.10] It makes so much sense, doesn't it?
[00:27:30.10 - 00:27:32.01] It seems so logical.
[00:27:32.10 - 00:27:34.07] There's no such thing as common sense.
[00:27:34.07 - 00:27:39.03] And we all assume that everybody comes from the same place where our intellect,
[00:27:39.03 - 00:27:41.21] our experiences, and our common sense is common.
[00:27:41.21 - 00:27:43.17] And that's not true.
[00:27:43.17 - 00:27:49.16] So it's not fair when we impose, I mean, we think it sort of happens through the
[00:27:49.16 - 00:27:50.06] ether, right?
[00:27:50.06 - 00:27:53.02] Like I'm going to give you a task and you're brand new at this role.
[00:27:53.02 - 00:27:56.08] And I'm just going to expect that you...
[00:27:56.08 - 00:27:59.14] automatically know how to do it or how I would like you to do it or how the
[00:27:59.14 - 00:28:04.10] business has always done it without any kind of explanation or guidance.
[00:28:04.10 - 00:28:09.02] And it's unfortunate that's the way business operates so often.
[00:28:09.02 - 00:28:12.00] But it is, that checklist is fantastic.
[00:28:12.00 - 00:28:16.18] And even for something that would seem as simple as doing something fun, like, I'm
[00:28:16.18 - 00:28:18.08] going to take my team to lunch.
[00:28:18.08 - 00:28:22.03] Even taking a team to lunch could have expectations.
[00:28:22.03 - 00:28:23.08] You're starting a book club.
[00:28:23.08 - 00:28:25.04] How do we know it works?
[00:28:25.15 - 00:28:26.20] Simple question.
[00:28:26.20 - 00:28:27.19] Yeah.
[00:28:28.17 - 00:28:33.05] I use a lot the principle of accountability and I've learned this from
[00:28:33.05 - 00:28:41.07] Entrepreneur Organization, EO, where we are working, like I work a lot in with
[00:28:41.07 - 00:28:45.09] other teams of volunteers where we're all entrepreneurs, we're all peers.
[00:28:45.09 - 00:28:47.22] So we're all in a team working on a project.
[00:28:47.22 - 00:28:50.14] I cannot use leadership by authority.
[00:28:50.16 - 00:28:54.21] I'm not there to employ them, we're all peers, we're all volunteers.
[00:28:54.23 - 00:28:58.06] But what I can use is accountability.
[00:28:58.06 - 00:29:03.08] So I can be fully transparent and fully on the same page with everyone and at the
[00:29:03.08 - 00:29:06.10] same level and saying, what do we agree to do?
[00:29:06.10 - 00:29:08.10] Who's accountable for doing what?
[00:29:08.10 - 00:29:13.10] And how often are we going to check in to make sure that everyone is held
[00:29:13.10 - 00:29:15.15] accountable by their peers?
[00:29:16.04 - 00:29:18.06] And this kind of
[00:29:18.07 - 00:29:25.05] contract, if you like, a contract may be a formal word, but it's...
[00:29:25.05 - 00:29:33.05] It's a clear way of committing everyone to a shared goal and a shared way of meeting
[00:29:33.05 - 00:29:34.06] expectations.
[00:29:34.06 - 00:29:34.14] Yep.
[00:29:34.15 - 00:29:37.02] And are you surprised even among that group?
[00:29:37.02 - 00:29:42.20] I mean, do you find that the expectations are met 99 % of the time or is there
[00:29:42.20 - 00:29:47.17] still, you know, there's human nature to not do things or not follow through?
[00:29:47.20 - 00:29:53.14] So, of course it's human nature, but the important benefit of this tool, actually
[00:29:53.14 - 00:29:55.13] there's many benefits.
[00:29:55.14 - 00:30:02.16] One of the benefits is that you don't have to get into a difficult conversation,
[00:30:02.16 - 00:30:07.14] because once you're in a group where everyone is signed up to the same
[00:30:07.14 - 00:30:12.23] outcomes, same expectations, you're going to put in X amounts of hours or you're
[00:30:12.23 - 00:30:14.19] going to get this much done,
[00:30:15.05 - 00:30:19.20] then the accountability is to the group, it's not to the manager.
[00:30:20.04 - 00:30:25.19] And so if someone is not showing up to the meetings, very simple example, then you
[00:30:25.19 - 00:30:28.17] can go and say, well, this is what we agreed.
[00:30:29.05 - 00:30:32.12] You're not showing up to the meetings for three consecutive times, let's say.
[00:30:32.12 - 00:30:34.06] This actually happened to me.
[00:30:34.06 - 00:30:40.01] And the fourth time they didn't show up, I said, you know, I cannot turn a blind eye
[00:30:40.01 - 00:30:43.02] to this because the accountability is not to me, it's to the group.
[00:30:43.02 - 00:30:45.10] We all decide, including yourself,
[00:30:45.10 - 00:30:47.10] that will be showing up.
[00:30:47.10 - 00:30:53.21] And as a result, you made yourself ostracized, to use a technical word, but
[00:30:53.21 - 00:30:56.12] you excluded yourself from this group.
[00:30:58.13 - 00:31:08.00] And the biggest benefit is you don't have to have tough conversations because the
[00:31:08.00 - 00:31:12.08] ownership of responsibility is with the group and not with the manager.
[00:31:12.08 - 00:31:15.13] And it's clear, you know upfront what those expectations are.
[00:31:15.13 - 00:31:20.23] So if you fail or fall short, you know what you've fallen short of.
[00:31:20.23 - 00:31:21.18] Yeah.
[00:31:22.19 - 00:31:29.21] Another topic I wanted to touch on, Gina, is fairness, which I know it's something
[00:31:29.21 - 00:31:31.07] close to your heart.
[00:31:31.07 - 00:31:33.02] So tell us more.
[00:31:33.05 - 00:31:34.21] What is fairness to you?
[00:31:34.22 - 00:31:36.11] In hiring...
[00:31:36.15 - 00:31:37.16] So it's interesting.
[00:31:37.16 - 00:31:43.23] So my initial foray into the hardware world, I was one of very few women.
[00:31:43.23 - 00:31:48.06] And I was also one of the only very visible women, meaning I was vocal and
[00:31:48.06 - 00:31:52.00] participating and sort of challenging the status quo.
[00:31:52.00 - 00:31:58.09] So I wanted the industry to be more fair for women and easier for women to get into.
[00:31:58.09 - 00:32:04.03] And so I had that lens from the outset because I was really an underdog.
[00:32:04.03 - 00:32:07.02] I was opening in an urban area that was an underdog.
[00:32:07.03 - 00:32:11.10] I was a woman opening in that area in an industry that's very male dominated, still is.
[00:32:11.10 - 00:32:18.07] And so I wanted people to treat me like any other on their way to being successful
[00:32:18.07 - 00:32:20.00] business owner.
[00:32:21.07 - 00:32:25.18] But because I was very different in this industry, I didn't always get that
[00:32:25.18 - 00:32:28.04] fairness, or at least felt like I got that fairness.
[00:32:28.04 - 00:32:32.08] So when I started hiring people, I wanted to do a couple things.
[00:32:32.08 - 00:32:35.18] Across the diversity spectrum, Washington DC is very diverse city.
[00:32:35.18 - 00:32:40.08] And so I wanted my team to reflect the customers that were coming in.
[00:32:40.08 - 00:32:45.09] And then in order to do that, I wanted to make sure that we were treating everybody,
[00:32:45.09 - 00:32:49.21] no matter what their background was, where they were from, what language they spoke,
[00:32:49.21 - 00:32:51.17] what addiction they were overcoming,
[00:32:51.17 - 00:32:53.16] what jail sentence they had served,
[00:32:53.16 - 00:32:57.06] I wanted all of those people to have a level playing field.
[00:32:57.06 - 00:33:01.16] So everyone who started out started out basically at the same,
[00:33:02.12 - 00:33:05.14] the same level of expectations, the same rules.
[00:33:05.14 - 00:33:10.11] And to me, that was fair at its very... You think about, when you're in elementary
[00:33:10.11 - 00:33:13.20] school and you're on the playground and you're playing kickball and the teachers,
[00:33:13.20 - 00:33:17.10] when you're six, will say, everybody gets a chance to kick or everyone gets a chance
[00:33:17.10 - 00:33:18.15] to pitch.
[00:33:18.15 - 00:33:25.03] And the older we get, the farther away we get from that standard of fairness because
[00:33:25.03 - 00:33:30.15] somebody's better at kicking or somebody might not help the team win.
[00:33:31.23 - 00:33:36.06] I’m sort of babbling, but we went into it wanting, no matter what someone's
[00:33:36.06 - 00:33:44.08] background was, to be treated the same way every time they showed up.
[00:33:44.10 - 00:33:51.01] So how do you differentiate or do you differentiate between being indifferent to
[00:33:51.01 - 00:33:59.02] someone's background, ethnicity, race and so on, versus actually biasing towards
[00:33:59.02 - 00:34:02.07] people of minority backgrounds?
[00:34:02.16 - 00:34:05.11] For us, that was easy because we always celebrated it.
[00:34:05.11 - 00:34:10.17] I'm not sure if I mentioned this in the podcast or in our pre-call, but in a
[00:34:10.17 - 00:34:14.02] previous tech job, my role was to spoil all of the employees.
[00:34:14.02 - 00:34:16.07] And that was a pretty diverse population.
[00:34:16.07 - 00:34:19.00] And so, part of that spoiling was celebrating.
[00:34:19.00 - 00:34:26.13] If you came from Kenya, for example, and one of my coworkers there did, we had a
[00:34:26.13 - 00:34:28.04] day to celebrate Kenya.
[00:34:28.04 - 00:34:33.01] He was invited to do all, he was given a budget to feed us food from Kenya,
[00:34:33.01 - 00:34:35.15] bring us things from Kenya.
[00:34:36.01 - 00:34:37.13] And so...
[00:34:37.13 - 00:34:40.10] So everybody was considered interesting.
[00:34:40.10 - 00:34:46.09] So we invited everybody to celebrate and talk about what it was that made them
[00:34:46.09 - 00:34:51.18] different from us, which is where the conversation can start about how people
[00:34:51.18 - 00:34:55.21] from Kenya are exactly like people from Ohio in so many ways, right?
[00:34:55.21 - 00:34:59.03] So you celebrate the differences and then you share the commonalities.
[00:34:59.03 - 00:35:01.23] And that is exactly what we did at the hardware store.
[00:35:01.23 - 00:35:05.08] If you started working there and you...
[00:35:07.06 - 00:35:10.03] Yeah, you came from a different background, spoke a different language.
[00:35:10.03 - 00:35:11.13] You were gay, not straight.
[00:35:11.13 - 00:35:15.13] You were from Ohio versus California versus Washington, DC.
[00:35:15.13 - 00:35:19.00] All of those gave us something to talk about.
[00:35:19.00 - 00:35:22.22] I had this grandma when I was growing up who she always said I was nosy.
[00:35:22.22 - 00:35:25.21] Every time I would ask a question, she would say, don't be nosy.
[00:35:25.21 - 00:35:30.03] And I think when we take that attitude, her attitude, you forget that we should be
[00:35:30.03 - 00:35:34.18] curious because there are so many interesting things to learn about people
[00:35:34.18 - 00:35:37.10] and places around the world that if we're not asking
[00:35:37.10 - 00:35:40.18] questions or inviting people to celebrate that part of themselves,
[00:35:40.18 - 00:35:44.17] we're not allowing them to bring their whole selves to work and we're missing out
[00:35:44.17 - 00:35:49.01] on something that might add a really cool aspect to our culture.
[00:35:49.03 - 00:35:56.03] And we forget that as children it's much easier to be curious and very difficult to
[00:35:56.03 - 00:35:59.23] be judgmental, which is the beginner's mindset.
[00:35:59.23 - 00:36:02.14] But as you grow the opposite becomes the case.
[00:36:02.14 - 00:36:06.20] It's too easy to be judgmental because you're the expert and it's too difficult
[00:36:06.20 - 00:36:08.11] to have the beginner's mind.
[00:36:08.11 - 00:36:11.02] I don't, I find that so frustrating.
[00:36:11.02 - 00:36:14.15] It's, yeah, we should all have that tattooed on our heads.
[00:36:14.15 - 00:36:18.11] Like, don't forget to be curious and remember you don't know everything.
[00:36:18.11 - 00:36:22.02] And I like to think of my teammates as non-traditional teachers.
[00:36:22.02 - 00:36:26.03] I don't know if we've ever hired anybody that had an educational, like a teaching
[00:36:26.03 - 00:36:30.12] background or ever taught anywhere, but they all taught me something.
[00:36:30.12 - 00:36:35.06] And we can learn, like you've got always learning there on your kiosk, we can learn
[00:36:35.06 - 00:36:38.12] from every single person on the street if we're willing to be
[00:36:38.12 - 00:36:40.22] curious enough and listen to what they're saying.
[00:36:40.22 - 00:36:44.13] And I found that no matter who we hired, they had something to teach me.
[00:36:44.15 - 00:36:49.16] And there's also this project, Human Library, I think it's called, where people
[00:36:49.16 - 00:37:00.07] who have interesting, unusual, even backgrounds like have served jail time or
[00:37:00.07 - 00:37:04.14] have been impoverished for a long period in their lives, they are there for you to
[00:37:04.14 - 00:37:06.23] meet them and read them like books.
[00:37:06.23 - 00:37:10.19] So they're there to tell you their story, which is fascinating.
[00:37:10.19 - 00:37:12.15] And it's run in several countries.
[00:37:12.15 - 00:37:14.04] It's also in Athens.
[00:37:14.05 - 00:37:15.01] Yeah.
[00:37:15.01 - 00:37:16.03] Which is how I got to know it.
[00:37:16.05 - 00:37:22.10] It's a great way to connect with somebody who has a completely different background.
[00:37:22.10 - 00:37:27.18] I hired a gentleman who worked on my team for, I think he was there for about eight
[00:37:27.18 - 00:37:29.14] years before he retired recently.
[00:37:29.14 - 00:37:35.09] And he was homeless when he started working with us, or shortly before he
[00:37:35.09 - 00:37:36.22] started working with us.
[00:37:37.11 - 00:37:40.08] He lived on a park bench in Washington, DC.
[00:37:40.12 - 00:37:41.19] And...
[00:37:41.19 - 00:37:45.03] People could say, again, are you crazy for hiring that person?
[00:37:45.03 - 00:37:49.19] Or they could say, wow, what an interesting life he's led.
[00:37:49.19 - 00:37:53.17] You know, interesting takes on a different meaning in that use.
[00:37:53.21 - 00:37:55.05] What can we learn from him?
[00:37:55.05 - 00:37:57.19] Or what do we want him to share about that?
[00:37:57.19 - 00:38:02.04] Or are there still traumas that he's overcoming from that aspect of his life
[00:38:02.04 - 00:38:06.09] that we don't want to trigger in work or we want to help him with in work?
[00:38:06.18 - 00:38:10.07] You know, the cool thing about selling the business to my team is that when he
[00:38:10.07 - 00:38:12.04] retired, he was an owner.
[00:38:12.04 - 00:38:17.19] So he went from living on a park bench to owning part of my business to having a
[00:38:17.19 - 00:38:23.07] retirement account as an owner that he would not have had if he had stayed on
[00:38:23.07 - 00:38:23.20] that park bench.
[00:38:23.20 - 00:38:29.07] And just to bring it full circle, he left the park bench because a nonprofit
[00:38:29.07 - 00:38:32.14] organization offered him a pair of shoes if he came to the meeting.
[00:38:32.14 - 00:38:36.10] And when I learned this and I was asking him about it, I said, what made you go to
[00:38:36.10 - 00:38:36.21] that meeting?
[00:38:36.21 - 00:38:39.05] And he said, I was curious.
[00:38:40.11 - 00:38:43.21] He didn't understand why they wanted to give him a pair of shoes.
[00:38:43.21 - 00:38:46.10] And so he went and he said, you know, I was scared.
[00:38:46.10 - 00:38:47.09] They were different than me.
[00:38:47.09 - 00:38:48.16] They looked different.
[00:38:48.16 - 00:38:51.03] I they, you know, they weren't homeless.
[00:38:51.03 - 00:38:53.00] He said, but I was curious.
[00:38:53.00 - 00:38:57.09] I was like, wow, yeah, like that's the way it works.
[00:38:57.12 - 00:39:05.02] So, Gina, as we come close to wrapping the podcast, what do you think is the
[00:39:05.02 - 00:39:11.05] superpower that comes from being so open-minded, so beginner's mind about hiring
[00:39:11.05 - 00:39:24.08] people from challenging backgrounds or just being so enamored with this diversity?
[00:39:27.08 - 00:39:29.06] It’s a really tough question.
[00:39:29.09 - 00:39:32.01] I, the, my life.
[00:39:32.01 - 00:39:34.13] How has your business gained as a result of that?
[00:39:34.13 - 00:39:35.19] My -
[00:39:35.19 - 00:39:40.04] business, well, just from a retail perspective, our turnover is way below
[00:39:40.04 - 00:39:43.08] 50%, which is unheard of in the retail world.
[00:39:43.08 - 00:39:47.18] So if you want to talk about KPIs, I could talk to you all day long about how some of
[00:39:47.18 - 00:39:53.09] those metrics are good because we have this culture, are great, in fact, because
[00:39:53.09 - 00:39:54.10] we have this culture.
[00:39:54.10 - 00:39:59.21] I think for me personally, which as an extension perhaps was imposed on the
[00:39:59.21 - 00:40:02.23] business, we are more interesting.
[00:40:02.23 - 00:40:05.11] We have better stories to tell.
[00:40:05.13 - 00:40:10.21] Our customers are reflected, you know, our team is reflected in the faces and the
[00:40:10.21 - 00:40:14.15] language and the experiences of our customers when they walk in.
[00:40:14.15 - 00:40:17.16] So no one should feel, I mean, people come into the hardware store and they're
[00:40:17.16 - 00:40:20.10] nervous because they don't know what they're doing a lot of times and they're
[00:40:20.10 - 00:40:23.05] afraid that whoever they're going to whoever they're talking to is going to
[00:40:23.05 - 00:40:24.23] judge them.
[00:40:25.01 - 00:40:27.06] That doesn't happen.
[00:40:27.06 - 00:40:32.18] So we've created a sense of values that have allowed everyone, not just the
[00:40:32.18 - 00:40:38.13] employees, but also the customers to feel comfortable and engaged, engaging.
[00:40:39.02 - 00:40:45.00] And my life is just so much richer because of it, the stories I have, the people I know.
[00:40:45.19 - 00:40:46.04] Yeah.
[00:40:46.07 - 00:40:51.04] And what do you think we need to rethink about culture as leaders?
[00:40:51.20 - 00:40:53.01] If you could sum it up.
[00:40:53.13 - 00:40:58.13] Yeah, I'm just gonna, I'm gonna sum up the, I'm gonna bring in the recovery piece.
[00:40:58.13 - 00:41:00.11] People need a place to go.
[00:41:00.17 - 00:41:02.15] And people need a purpose.
[00:41:02.15 - 00:41:07.21] And when societies are allowed to ostracize entire groups of people based on
[00:41:07.21 - 00:41:12.12] something in their past that they may or may not have had control over, we have
[00:41:12.12 - 00:41:19.04] eliminated an entire group of people from being productive, safe, healthy members of society.
[00:41:19.04 - 00:41:21.02] And that doesn't serve anybody well.
[00:41:21.02 - 00:41:22.14] It doesn't serve that person.
[00:41:22.14 - 00:41:25.01] It doesn't serve my neighborhood.
[00:41:25.01 - 00:41:29.02] It doesn't serve the main streets, the business environment.
[00:41:29.02 - 00:41:30.16] And I think business owners have
[00:41:30.16 - 00:41:36.23] to really rethink who and how they hire, our judgments, our biases, and what
[00:41:36.23 - 00:41:42.12] as a society we can do, even as a small business like mine, to make it a more
[00:41:42.12 - 00:41:46.00] vibrant and equitable place.
[00:41:46.03 - 00:41:51.15] And in a few words, is there something you would like to leave us with?
[00:41:51.15 - 00:41:52.07] Any thoughts?
[00:41:52.07 - 00:41:54.18] Any book you recently read?
[00:41:55.12 - 00:41:59.16] Anything we need to be more mindful of?
[00:41:59.16 - 00:42:01.04] Any takeaways?
[00:42:01.19 - 00:42:02.17] You have your book.
[00:42:02.17 - 00:42:05.03] A lot of what I’ve been reading and talking about has to do with
[00:42:05.03 - 00:42:06.13] selling your business to your employees.
[00:42:06.13 - 00:42:09.07] And so I will leave you with this, not that specifically.
[00:42:09.07 - 00:42:14.16] But as business owners, we have to know how and when and why we're going to sell
[00:42:14.16 - 00:42:16.07] the business or transition the business.
[00:42:16.07 - 00:42:22.04] And so a lot of what I've been talking about and researching lately is how do we
[00:42:22.04 - 00:42:27.10] educate the coming generation on taking over business and the current generation
[00:42:27.10 - 00:42:28.19] leaving the business.
[00:42:28.19 - 00:42:30.22] How's that turnover going to look?
[00:42:30.22 - 00:42:32.08] The baby boomers are getting
[00:42:32.08 - 00:42:37.02] the retirement age, what is that going to do to our main streets, and so that's a
[00:42:37.02 - 00:42:42.11] little bit of a tangent, but that's really what I've been researching and studying
[00:42:42.11 - 00:42:44.03] most recently.
[00:42:44.07 - 00:42:48.12] Gina, I love your story and what you stand for.
[00:42:49.20 - 00:42:52.05] Something...
[00:42:52.12 - 00:42:54.11] I would summarize it as follows.
[00:42:54.11 - 00:42:57.20] It's a business built around a purpose.
[00:43:00.01 - 00:43:07.15] And one that's very unusual, one that's unfortunately for many it's frowned upon.
[00:43:08.18 - 00:43:12.08] And maybe even seen as impossible or crazy.
[00:43:12.08 - 00:43:14.17] And you've been there and you know.
[00:43:14.23 - 00:43:17.13] But you've managed to turn it around.
[00:43:17.13 - 00:43:20.07] You're a trusting person as you say, but you...
[00:43:20.07 - 00:43:26.05] You have built your culture and your systems and your safeguards to turn it
[00:43:26.05 - 00:43:33.03] around and create a culture for people that come from any unusual and all the
[00:43:33.03 - 00:43:35.04] usual backgrounds at the same time.
[00:43:35.06 - 00:43:38.09] Yeah, you know, most communities have an underemployed population.
[00:43:38.09 - 00:43:43.07] It could be stay at home moms, it could be veterans, it could be the formerly homeless.
[00:43:43.07 - 00:43:48.04] I mean, there are entire groups of people, it could be new kids graduating from
[00:43:48.04 - 00:43:50.20] college or people who didn't get a college degree.
[00:43:50.21 - 00:43:54.18] All communities have a population that is underemployed.
[00:43:54.18 - 00:43:58.19] And so to the people who say, well, that would never work for me, one, I would say
[00:43:58.19 - 00:44:03.10] this is your problem, not the, you know, that's my solution is not the problem.
[00:44:03.10 - 00:44:05.05] It's your reaction to it.
[00:44:05.05 - 00:44:11.04] But I also say, think about who or how our businesses can help, where you are
[00:44:11.04 - 00:44:16.19] comfortable, where you wouldn't think that it's weird or stupid or impossible, and
[00:44:16.19 - 00:44:17.19] start there.
[00:44:17.19 - 00:44:22.00] The other thing that I learned over the last two years, I wrote a book and I ended
[00:44:22.00 - 00:44:25.11] up finding all of these other really great businesses across the country that are
[00:44:25.11 - 00:44:27.10] small, that are doing similar things.
[00:44:27.10 - 00:44:29.01] And that was very validating to me.
[00:44:29.01 - 00:44:33.14] And I hope someday that I get a chance to tell their stories, because it's not just
[00:44:33.14 - 00:44:35.03] my business that's been hiring this
[00:44:35.03 - 00:44:37.04] way or celebrating community this way.
[00:44:37.04 - 00:44:40.19] There are lots of businesses across the country that have popped up in my research
[00:44:40.19 - 00:44:44.20] and writing that are doing very similar things, which I find super validating and
[00:44:44.20 - 00:44:46.03] just wonderful.
[00:44:46.05 - 00:44:48.05] And the book is the one we see behind you for those...
[00:44:48.05 - 00:44:49.23] Oh yeah, Recovery Hardware.
[00:44:49.23 - 00:44:52.06] ...watching us on YouTube.
[00:44:53.10 - 00:44:57.22] And where can people find out more about you and your book?
[00:44:58.05 - 00:45:02.13] So I'm on LinkedIn at Gina Schaeffer and I love to connect with everybody.
[00:45:02.13 - 00:45:06.09] I'm on Instagram at Recovery Hardware, which was started when I published the
[00:45:06.09 - 00:45:09.11] book, but now it's a little more of a lifestyle Instagram account.
[00:45:09.11 - 00:45:12.23] So those two places and then GinaSchaefer.com.
[00:45:12.23 - 00:45:14.07] The book is for sale there.
[00:45:14.07 - 00:45:18.11] I always advocate buying it from a local bookstore, not a big retailer.
[00:45:18.11 - 00:45:24.01] And you can ask your local bookstore to order it for you.
[00:45:24.20 - 00:45:26.12] Wonderful, wonderful.
[00:45:26.13 - 00:45:28.19] Gina, I'm really glad we got to meet.
[00:45:30.02 - 00:45:32.16] And thank you to everyone who listened to us.
[00:45:32.16 - 00:45:37.02] If you like the show, you can tell your friends about it and you can leave a
[00:45:37.02 - 00:45:39.13] comment in your favorite podcast app.
[00:45:39.21 - 00:45:44.17] You can also watch and not just listen by subscribing to our YouTube channel on
[00:45:44.17 - 00:45:48.19] youtube.com/{rethinkculture.
[00:45:48.23 - 00:45:50.11] And don't forget...
[00:45:50.11 - 00:45:55.02] Don't forget to tell us what you think by emailing rethink{rethinkculture.co.
[00:45:55.05 - 00:46:03.00] And lastly, keep on creating a happier, healthier workplace for those around you.
[00:46:03.00 - 00:46:04.07] And keep leading.
[00:46:04.14 - 00:46:05.16] Thank you.