Rethink Culture

[00:00:07.13 - 00:00:10.13] Good morning, good afternoon and good evening.
[00:00:11.04 - 00:00:14.16] Welcome to Rethink Culture, the podcast that shines a spotlight on leaders of
[00:00:14.16 - 00:00:17.21] businesses that people love to work for.
[00:00:17.22 - 00:00:20.18] My name is Andreas Konstantinou and I'm your host.
[00:00:20.19 - 00:00:24.16] I'm the founder of Rethink Culture, a company that helps businesses create
[00:00:24.16 - 00:00:29.01] happier, healthier workplace cultures by auditing their culture.
[00:00:29.10 - 00:00:35.09] Today I have the pleasure of welcoming Nathan Donaldson all the way from New
[00:00:35.10 - 00:00:36.07] Zealand.
[00:00:36.13 - 00:00:38.21] He's the CEO and founder of Boost.
[00:00:38.22 - 00:00:42.06] Boost is a custom software agency for government.
[00:00:42.07 - 00:00:49.16] He's also the author of a very nicely titled book, Unicorns Over Rainbows, which
[00:00:49.16 - 00:00:55.06] is a book about making lasting, meaningful changes to your organization.
[00:00:55.07 - 00:01:00.08] He's a winner of a lifetime achievement award for democracy in the workplace
[00:01:00.08 - 00:01:01.22] from WorldBlu.
[00:01:01.22 - 00:01:05.01] He's a designer at heart, loves to solve hard problems.
[00:01:05.07 - 00:01:09.06] He also loves computer game racing, he tells me.
[00:01:09.07 - 00:01:14.22] And of course, being in New Zealand, all about outdoors, mountain biking, surfing,
[00:01:14.22 - 00:01:16.19] snowboarding and everything else.
[00:01:16.19 - 00:01:19.21] So very welcome to the Rethink Culture podcast, Nathan.
[00:01:19.22 - 00:01:20.23] Really pleased to have you here.
[00:01:20.23 - 00:01:23.10] Thanks very much Andreas, very pleased to be here.
[00:01:23.17 - 00:01:31.02] So, as we get started, tell us a bit about what is Boost and what makes Boost special
[00:01:31.02 - 00:01:32.17] in terms of its culture.
[00:01:33.01 - 00:01:34.01] Sure.
[00:01:34.01 - 00:01:37.02] So Boost, as you mentioned, is a software company.
[00:01:37.02 - 00:01:40.19] We make custom or bespoke software for government departments.
[00:01:40.19 - 00:01:41.18] We're quite small.
[00:01:41.19 - 00:01:44.22] There's about 25 to 30 of us.
[00:01:44.22 - 00:01:52.22] And I think what is unique is, well, not unique, what's uncommon is that we don't
[00:01:52.22 - 00:01:56.15] have any hierarchical structures built into the business.
[00:01:56.16 - 00:01:59.16] So we don't have any managers, line managers.
[00:02:00.10 - 00:02:02.04] Everybody has a coach.
[00:02:02.13 - 00:02:08.05] So, and I think it's really easy sometimes to say there's no managers in this
[00:02:08.05 - 00:02:09.05] business.
[00:02:09.05 - 00:02:14.03] And then when you start to dig down, you find that there's all sorts of management
[00:02:14.04 - 00:02:15.06] going on.
[00:02:15.07 - 00:02:20.04] But really what we have is a group of people who are able to manage themselves
[00:02:20.07 - 00:02:23.14] and have very high levels of responsibility.
[00:02:23.19 - 00:02:31.10] So when we use the Gallup or now Clifton's StrengthsFinder, and I would say 90 % of
[00:02:31.10 - 00:02:32.18] our team have
[00:02:32.19 - 00:02:35.19] Responsibility is one of their top 10 strengths.
[00:02:36.10 - 00:02:43.16] So they feel responsible to each other, to the client and to the wider organization.
[00:02:43.16 - 00:02:48.19] And they know how to make good decisions for themselves.
[00:02:50.23 - 00:02:57.20] The way we got here was really, it was really about standing on the shoulders of
[00:02:57.20 - 00:03:04.09] giants, reading the best books out there that describe the types of cultures that I
[00:03:04.10 - 00:03:06.07] really wanted to be a part of.
[00:03:06.07 - 00:03:10.11] So I'm thinking about a Richard Sheridan book, Joy Inc.
[00:03:10.11 - 00:03:13.23] Or Maverick by Ricardo Semler.
[00:03:13.23 - 00:03:19.06] And when I read those, they really sparked my imagination to think, well, what can
[00:03:19.07 - 00:03:20.17] the business be like?
[00:03:20.23 - 00:03:25.11] And often we've just copied stuff and then made it work for us.
[00:03:25.23 - 00:03:28.10] And always it's been a huge improvement.
[00:03:28.10 - 00:03:33.16] So as I look around the business today, everybody's managing themselves, but
[00:03:33.16 - 00:03:38.10] everybody has the support and the coaching to really be their best selves.
[00:03:38.10 - 00:03:41.12] We encourage people to bring their whole selves to work.
[00:03:41.13 - 00:03:45.17] And we involve the whole team in decision -making.
[00:03:46.23 - 00:03:51.05] Another thing that's a wee bit different about Boost is the way the leadership team
[00:03:51.05 - 00:03:52.13] is structured.
[00:03:53.01 - 00:03:57.20] So we don't describe ourselves as the leadership team.
[00:03:57.20 - 00:03:59.11] We're the navigators.
[00:03:59.11 - 00:04:04.05] Our job is to help chart the course that's going to get the company to the
[00:04:04.05 - 00:04:07.10] destination that we will want to get to.
[00:04:07.10 - 00:04:13.20] And that group is not made up of department heads or people who have been
[00:04:13.20 - 00:04:17.13] there the longest or... people on the highest salaries.
[00:04:17.13 - 00:04:20.17] It's taken from right across the business.
[00:04:20.17 - 00:04:27.12] And it's based on people's ability to move the business forward and their desire to
[00:04:27.13 - 00:04:31.22] provide a service to the rest of the organization and to other people.
[00:04:32.07 - 00:04:38.18] So at times we have invited people onto that Navigators team, the leadership team,
[00:04:38.19 - 00:04:42.20] when they've joined us, the office administrator, and they've been with us
[00:04:42.20 - 00:04:44.07] for two or three weeks.
[00:04:44.13 - 00:04:48.08] And you can just see they're exactly the right person to be leading the
[00:04:48.08 - 00:04:49.23] organization forward.
[00:04:50.04 - 00:04:57.10] So we always try to keep it at least 50 % female, the evidence that having more than
[00:04:57.10 - 00:05:02.01] 50 % female in teams makes better decision making is very, very strong.
[00:05:02.17 - 00:05:08.16] So in the age ranges in the leadership team at the moment, the navigators, goes
[00:05:08.16 - 00:05:12.20] from 24 through to medium to older 52.
[00:05:13.20 - 00:05:22.19] And so we've got currently three women, three men, people of diverse ethnic
[00:05:22.19 - 00:05:24.20] backgrounds, cultural backgrounds.
[00:05:25.10 - 00:05:31.05] And they're just committed to making the organization the best place to work
[00:05:31.05 - 00:05:35.04] possible while delivering the best results for our clients.
[00:05:35.16 - 00:05:42.17] So I always think it's really key that you can't be productive unless your team's
[00:05:42.17 - 00:05:43.08] happy.
[00:05:43.08 - 00:05:43.19] And...
[00:05:43.19 - 00:05:46.09] your team can't be happy unless they're productive.
[00:05:46.10 - 00:05:48.06] So it's not one or the other.
[00:05:48.07 - 00:05:51.09] It's not those surface feature type happiness things.
[00:05:51.10 - 00:05:55.07] It's not the foosball tables and the perks.
[00:05:55.07 - 00:06:00.04] It's that deeper happiness that comes from doing some meaningful work for people that
[00:06:00.04 - 00:06:04.06] you like and respect, working with people that you like and respect.
[00:06:04.07 - 00:06:09.04] So we're always trying to balance that, the needs of the collective against the
[00:06:09.04 - 00:06:10.20] needs of the individual.
[00:06:10.20 - 00:06:15.11] Keeping our mind on what the team needs, but also on what the organization and the
[00:06:15.11 - 00:06:16.16] clients need.
[00:06:17.13 - 00:06:21.01] The business is 24 years old this year.
[00:06:22.07 - 00:06:28.04] So our youngest member of our leadership team is almost exactly the same age as the
[00:06:28.04 - 00:06:29.07] business.
[00:06:29.07 - 00:06:35.20] So there's quite a few funny touch points that we miss out on together, which is
[00:06:35.20 - 00:06:36.16] fun.
[00:06:37.04 - 00:06:45.10] And, and, talking about government clients who are, of course, imagine extremely
[00:06:45.10 - 00:06:46.21] hierarchical.
[00:06:46.22 - 00:06:48.22] Does that create any tension?
[00:06:49.22 - 00:06:55.19] Is there any gap in expectations from your clients on how, you know, who should be
[00:06:55.19 - 00:06:59.09] signing off and having an official like head of procurement?
[00:06:59.10 - 00:07:03.22] And, you know, is there, how do you, what tension is there and how do you manage it?
[00:07:04.13 - 00:07:12.07] Yeah, that's a really good point because I suppose the way we look at it is that we
[00:07:12.07 - 00:07:16.23] have created the systems and processes for being able to deliver high quality
[00:07:16.23 - 00:07:21.10] software, high value quite quickly.
[00:07:21.10 - 00:07:26.19] And if our clients are unable to work in the way that we need to work, we can't
[00:07:26.19 - 00:07:27.23] deliver that.
[00:07:28.07 - 00:07:31.21] So when we're going through sort of procurement processes, we're being really
[00:07:31.22 - 00:07:33.07] careful to make sure that...
[00:07:33.07 - 00:07:36.22] the client's able to provide everything that we need to be successful.
[00:07:37.04 - 00:07:42.10] And that includes having a single person who can make the decisions on what we're
[00:07:42.10 - 00:07:46.23] doing and who is available at least 20 hours a week to the team.
[00:07:46.23 - 00:07:53.10] So our strong preference is to have our clients in constant contact with the team,
[00:07:53.10 - 00:07:59.08] so working in the team, because that's the main limiting factor for productivity is
[00:07:59.08 - 00:08:02.11] access to that person who can make decisions.
[00:08:02.17 - 00:08:07.22] The downside of this is that our addressable market is quite small.
[00:08:07.22 - 00:08:13.21] So we just can't work for everyone because we have a way to be successful and we
[00:08:13.22 - 00:08:15.13] don't know any other way to be successful.
[00:08:15.13 - 00:08:19.13] So if we can't work that way, we just don't take on the work.
[00:08:19.23 - 00:08:26.01] So we get a new client every three to four years.
[00:08:26.04 - 00:08:30.07] Yeah, which is a terrible sales cycle.
[00:08:30.13 - 00:08:34.21] But we build very long lasting trusting relationships with those clients.
[00:08:34.22 - 00:08:39.20] So our longest project's been going continuously for over 15 years.
[00:08:40.02 - 00:08:42.19] So we're an agile software development company.
[00:08:42.19 - 00:08:44.12] We work in two weeks' sprints.
[00:08:44.13 - 00:08:49.00] And that project's been running two weeks' sprints every two weeks, apart from
[00:08:49.01 - 00:08:51.05] Christmas, for the last 15.
[00:08:51.12 - 00:08:52.00] Amazing.
[00:08:52.00 - 00:08:55.17] And what got you to this journey?
[00:08:55.17 - 00:08:59.10] What was your thought process?
[00:08:59.11 - 00:09:04.17] Why did you want to build a company with no managers?
[00:09:05.02 - 00:09:09.02] It's a very unusual, as you said, uncommon setup.
[00:09:09.11 - 00:09:14.12] And what do you think in the way you grew up?
[00:09:14.18 - 00:09:23.14] And your world view as a younger person, as a younger Nathan, what influenced you
[00:09:23.14 - 00:09:24.13] to go that way?
[00:09:24.14 - 00:09:26.15] That's a really interesting question.
[00:09:27.03 - 00:09:34.01] So I think the first time I started to become politically aware, I was seven or
[00:09:34.02 - 00:09:34.23] eight.
[00:09:35.02 - 00:09:40.07] So in the town where I'm living now, where I grew up, Dunedin, at the bottom of New
[00:09:40.08 - 00:09:42.12] Zealand, we have a beautiful harbor.
[00:09:42.12 - 00:09:47.18] And at the head of the harbor, there's a wetland on one side and a royal albatross
[00:09:47.18 - 00:09:48.22] colony on the other.
[00:09:48.23 - 00:09:52.08] So it's the only southern royal albatross
[00:09:52.11 - 00:09:55.05] colony on a mainland in the world.
[00:09:55.20 - 00:10:00.20] And when I was seven or eight, the government wanted to put an aluminium
[00:10:00.20 - 00:10:04.05] smelter on the wetland at the head of the harbour.
[00:10:04.23 - 00:10:09.00] And it divided the town.
[00:10:09.00 - 00:10:10.05] So it's quite a small town.
[00:10:10.05 - 00:10:15.18] It would have been about 80,000 people then, but it absolutely divided the town.
[00:10:16.05 - 00:10:21.00] And I found myself on one side of the argument against the smelter.
[00:10:21.00 - 00:10:24.05] With my parents quite firmly on the other side.
[00:10:24.05 - 00:10:30.02] And that was the start of political and social justice arguments that continue
[00:10:30.02 - 00:10:31.23] with my parents to this day.
[00:10:31.23 - 00:10:38.17] So I've never really felt a strong drive to agree for the sake of sort of social
[00:10:38.17 - 00:10:39.15] harmony.
[00:10:39.15 - 00:10:45.13] I've always liked to think about things from a relatively, I hope, long -term
[00:10:45.14 - 00:10:48.03] perspective and form my own opinions.
[00:10:49.02 - 00:10:52.05] Which made being a teenager a bit tough.
[00:10:53.14 - 00:11:02.00] So that was the kind of start of, I suppose, my critical thinking journey,
[00:11:02.00 - 00:11:05.00] like thinking independently, making decisions for myself.
[00:11:06.15 - 00:11:12.03] The journey into business, I'd never really aspired to being a business person.
[00:11:12.14 - 00:11:18.20] What I'd aspire to do was to make change in the world and to do really good work.
[00:11:19.02 - 00:11:24.02] And when I was at university, the internet was just coming of age.
[00:11:24.02 - 00:11:32.18] So I was at university from 1990 onwards and the university in Dunedin had just got
[00:11:32.18 - 00:11:34.01] internet.
[00:11:34.02 - 00:11:34.23] And so...
[00:11:35.02 - 00:11:37.23] For those old enough to remember, we didn't have the World Wide Web at that
[00:11:37.23 - 00:11:38.22] stage.
[00:11:38.23 - 00:11:44.09] It started kind of a year or two later, but we had Gopher and Usenet and FTP
[00:11:44.09 - 00:11:45.09] servers and stuff.
[00:11:45.09 - 00:11:49.09] And I was fascinated by that access to information and that drove me to look for
[00:11:49.09 - 00:11:55.06] a job where I could start to interact with that sort of large network of the
[00:11:55.06 - 00:11:56.02] internet.
[00:11:58.15 - 00:12:04.15] I worked a few places, I did some teaching and I ended up in Wellington in our
[00:12:04.15 - 00:12:10.20] capital city and decided to start a company with a friend because I could see
[00:12:10.20 - 00:12:17.21] so much opportunity to do things better, but with a deeper understanding and
[00:12:18.00 - 00:12:20.11] deliver better results for people.
[00:12:20.17 - 00:12:27.00] And I wanted to start a company to do that work and I never really engaged with the
[00:12:27.00 - 00:12:28.11] business side of it.
[00:12:28.15 - 00:12:30.23] Until I was maybe three or four years in.
[00:12:30.23 - 00:12:38.18] And I started to realize that running a business actually threw up many more
[00:12:38.18 - 00:12:42.17] intellectual challenges for me than doing the software development work.
[00:12:43.05 - 00:12:48.21] By that stage, I've been doing the software development stuff for 10, 12
[00:12:48.21 - 00:12:49.23] years.
[00:12:50.11 - 00:12:56.00] And I started to realize that the complexity and subtlety of working with
[00:12:56.00 - 00:12:58.00] people running a business.
[00:12:58.00 - 00:13:01.00] Was actually incredibly intellectually stimulating.
[00:13:01.05 - 00:13:04.09] And I started to think about what that might look like.
[00:13:05.17 - 00:13:09.21] After six years, I bought out my business partner I'd started with and it was just
[00:13:09.21 - 00:13:10.20] myself.
[00:13:10.20 - 00:13:14.14] And that was one of the things that gave me the opportunity to really start
[00:13:14.14 - 00:13:15.16] experimenting.
[00:13:15.17 - 00:13:19.16] So, we were 50 -50 shareholders and we worked really well together.
[00:13:19.17 - 00:13:25.21] But once I owned the whole business, it was really my playground to try new ideas
[00:13:25.21 - 00:13:27.22] and to try things into.
[00:13:27.23 - 00:13:32.00] To see what effect I could have on the outcomes.
[00:13:32.14 - 00:13:36.13] But at that stage, I still really hadn't engaged with sort of business thought at
[00:13:36.13 - 00:13:36.20] all.
[00:13:36.20 - 00:13:41.09] I still sort of saw business as a bit of a dirty word, I suppose.
[00:13:41.09 - 00:13:44.14] You know, I didn't see it as caring, humanistic.
[00:13:44.14 - 00:13:46.02] I saw it as one -dimensional.
[00:13:46.02 - 00:13:53.09] And I didn't aspire to be, you know, an old white guy in a suit standing at the
[00:13:53.09 - 00:13:56.00] front of a company barking orders at people.
[00:13:57.17 - 00:14:04.03] So ironically now I'm an old white guy with long hair sitting at the back of the
[00:14:04.03 - 00:14:06.17] room being unhelpful.
[00:14:07.11 - 00:14:13.02] So I was trying to make it work but without really engaging with the ideas of
[00:14:13.02 - 00:14:14.05] business.
[00:14:14.05 - 00:14:19.06] And then one day we had a call from our largest client who said the work's
[00:14:19.06 - 00:14:21.02] stopping, essentially.
[00:14:21.06 - 00:14:25.20] We're going from being sort of a very large percentage of your -
[00:14:25.20 - 00:14:26.20] of your work to
[00:14:26.20 - 00:14:30.08] I can keep one person on this project to keep the lights on and I'm going to go out
[00:14:30.08 - 00:14:31.13] and try and find some more work.
[00:14:31.14 - 00:14:35.16] And so the next day I had to come to work, I had to make five people
[00:14:35.17 - 00:14:36.17] redundant.
[00:14:36.23 - 00:14:40.05] I had to talk to the team about what was going on.
[00:14:42.20 - 00:14:48.07] And it was, my wife still refers to it as the personal financial crisis.
[00:14:48.08 - 00:14:52.09] So it was during the GFC, the global financial crisis that we were doing our
[00:14:52.09 - 00:14:54.14] own personal financial crisis.
[00:14:56.03 - 00:14:59.11] And it was traumatic.
[00:15:00.09 - 00:15:05.08] I'd gone from having a business that the money just seemed to come in.
[00:15:05.17 - 00:15:09.09] The team judged how well we were doing by how many packages were sent up from my
[00:15:09.09 - 00:15:11.17] desk, the things I was buying online.
[00:15:12.05 - 00:15:17.03] And then all of a sudden, it was struggling to find money to pay wages.
[00:15:17.08 - 00:15:20.03] Struggling to see more than a month out.
[00:15:20.14 - 00:15:24.00] And it really woke me up.
[00:15:24.00 - 00:15:28.22] To the realization that I was just a huge bottleneck in the business.
[00:15:28.23 - 00:15:34.19] That I was the only person I could change and that my lack of knowledge, skills and
[00:15:34.20 - 00:15:39.21] understanding and leadership and business was just a huge risk to the business.
[00:15:39.21 - 00:15:46.02] And I had failed everybody around me, which that just really sucked as well that
[00:15:46.02 - 00:15:50.12] I had aspired to be a good leader, but I really not delivered on it.
[00:15:51.00 - 00:15:54.06] So I started to read books.
[00:15:54.17 - 00:16:00.12] I started to get coaches and I joined a couple of organizations that were really
[00:16:00.12 - 00:16:01.14] formative.
[00:16:01.17 - 00:16:07.19] So first I joined WorldBlu, worked with Traci at WorldBlu.
[00:16:07.20 - 00:16:12.03] She coached me for three or four years through some particularly tough stuff.
[00:16:12.23 - 00:16:19.09] And then I joined EO, the Entrepreneur's Organization around...
[00:16:20.03 - 00:16:22.20] So I joined EO about the same time...
[00:16:22.20 - 00:16:24.17] this all kicked off, actually.
[00:16:24.17 - 00:16:29.14] I started to look at EO for the idea of having some support in the business.
[00:16:29.14 - 00:16:36.10] But really, once this crisis occurred and I realized I needed to really level up, EO
[00:16:36.11 - 00:16:43.04] became a great support, largely in terms of exposing me to some amazing people,
[00:16:43.05 - 00:16:49.05] amazing ideas, and just lists and lists of books to go away and read.
[00:16:49.05 - 00:16:50.23] And so that's what I did.
[00:16:51.17 - 00:16:58.02] And in those first few years, I struggled to find a model that worked for me.
[00:16:58.02 - 00:17:02.10] So I was looking around at the business world around me and...
[00:17:02.11 - 00:17:08.08] And I was trying to discern what's the best model, what's the most successful
[00:17:08.08 - 00:17:10.20] model for building the type of business that I want to build.
[00:17:10.20 - 00:17:14.12] And so, you know, the thing that was most obvious was sort of that corporate
[00:17:14.12 - 00:17:16.02] hierarchical model.
[00:17:16.06 - 00:17:19.23] And so, you know, we started doing 360 reviews and I started trying to put in
[00:17:19.23 - 00:17:21.17] hierarchical systems.
[00:17:22.05 - 00:17:23.01] And...
[00:17:23.14 - 00:17:27.23] Even though the culture we had then isn't like the culture we had now, it was still
[00:17:27.23 - 00:17:34.11] really a reflection of who I was, which is someone who was anti -authoritarian,
[00:17:34.17 - 00:17:39.17] didn't like to do things the way other people did, just for the pure reason of
[00:17:39.17 - 00:17:40.17] doing that.
[00:17:40.17 - 00:17:42.03] And so it was never going to work.
[00:17:42.03 - 00:17:44.10] And of course it didn't.
[00:17:44.11 - 00:17:49.21] And so it wasn't until I was reading books like Maverick by Ricardo Semler, that was
[00:17:49.21 - 00:17:51.22] absolutely seminal for me.
[00:17:51.23 - 00:17:53.15] Just that.
[00:17:53.20 - 00:18:00.21] I remember it being so eye -opening that he could do things that were the right
[00:18:01.02 - 00:18:04.08] thing to do for people and they were successful.
[00:18:04.11 - 00:18:08.01] And that was just so exciting.
[00:18:08.02 - 00:18:13.00] And then, you know, going on to read other books and meet other people, Richard
[00:18:13.00 - 00:18:16.09] Sheridan at Menlo Innovations who wrote Joy Inc.
[00:18:16.12 - 00:18:19.05] Take an incredible amount from him.
[00:18:19.15 - 00:18:22.06] And really what we started to do was just...
[00:18:22.06 - 00:18:27.16] implement one thing after another, one small change, get that embedded and
[00:18:27.17 - 00:18:29.20] working and then try the next thing.
[00:18:29.23 - 00:18:36.19] And I always think you've kind of got two options in the life you lead, whether it
[00:18:36.20 - 00:18:38.07] be your personal life or your business life.
[00:18:38.08 - 00:18:43.11] You can be intentional or you can just be ad hoc.
[00:18:43.11 - 00:18:47.20] And I'd rather be intentional and get it wrong, but at least I knew what I was
[00:18:47.20 - 00:18:48.21] trying to achieve.
[00:18:48.21 - 00:18:51.07] And then I can reset course and try again.
[00:18:51.08 - 00:18:54.05] Than just to let things happen to me and just to see what evolved.
[00:18:54.05 - 00:18:59.21] And so I began to take a really intentional view of designing the
[00:18:59.21 - 00:19:01.02] business.
[00:19:01.11 - 00:19:04.08] So, and it's taken a long time.
[00:19:04.08 - 00:19:10.15] You know, we're just a small business, but I think, you know, the joke we have at
[00:19:10.15 - 00:19:13.22] work is that I come up with an idea and then three years later, the team decides
[00:19:13.23 - 00:19:16.08] that it's a good idea and starts to implement it.
[00:19:16.08 - 00:19:18.06] So pretty much.
[00:19:18.06 - 00:19:21.11] Everything's on a three year delay cycle for us.
[00:19:22.02 - 00:19:26.05] That's because the organization is not ready to adopt it?
[00:19:26.05 - 00:19:28.12] Or because they're challenging your own views?
[00:19:28.12 - 00:19:29.06] Why is that?
[00:19:29.07 - 00:19:31.21] I think there's a couple of things. In the early days
[00:19:31.21 - 00:19:38.11] it was because I had way too many ideas, way too poorly thought through.
[00:19:38.18 - 00:19:43.21] I would move to a new idea before I'd even finished half implementing the first one.
[00:19:43.21 - 00:19:49.08] And so the fatigue of that pressure that I put on the team of, you know, just idea
[00:19:49.08 - 00:19:50.23] after idea after idea.
[00:19:50.23 - 00:19:55.10] And, you know, they just, I think, got to the point where it was like, Nathan's been
[00:19:55.10 - 00:19:56.18] to a conference.
[00:19:56.18 - 00:19:58.21] He's going to come back with lots of ideas.
[00:19:58.22 - 00:20:02.08] Let's just like nod and smile for a while and hope he forgets about it.
[00:20:02.08 - 00:20:03.22] That was kind of the vibe.
[00:20:03.22 - 00:20:11.23] And then over the years as I've kind of, I hope got a bit more wisdom and slowed
[00:20:11.23 - 00:20:22.19] stuff down, listened more, said less, the team have started to be interested in my
[00:20:22.19 - 00:20:25.21] ideas, but also...
[00:20:25.21 - 00:20:28.12] I've started to have far fewer ideas.
[00:20:28.12 - 00:20:36.09] So now I think what tends to happen is if I notice something or an opportunity, it
[00:20:36.09 - 00:20:39.06] becomes the start of a conversation.
[00:20:40.07 - 00:20:41.08] Look, I've noticed this.
[00:20:41.08 - 00:20:43.04] Is this something that you think we can do better?
[00:20:43.04 - 00:20:46.16] What do you guys think might be something we could try?
[00:20:46.16 - 00:20:53.22] So realizing that I didn't have to have all the ideas and that...
[00:20:53.22 - 00:20:56.22] Frankly, some of my ideas were terrible.
[00:20:58.09 - 00:21:01.18] Bringing a bit of humility to the table really helped, I think.
[00:21:02.11 - 00:21:05.22] Yeah, I can totally empathize with that.
[00:21:05.23 - 00:21:11.11] My team used to also say, Andreas has read another book.
[00:21:12.05 - 00:21:15.01] And there were a few ideas on the table.
[00:21:15.02 - 00:21:18.05] And of course, I would forget them a month or two later.
[00:21:18.05 - 00:21:23.11] And then maybe six months later, I would come back and say, what happened to that?
[00:21:24.03 - 00:21:25.19] As if, you know,
[00:21:25.20 - 00:21:30.07] somebody should have taken my brain dumb at the moment and executed it because it
[00:21:30.08 - 00:21:31.16] was the best thing.
[00:21:31.17 - 00:21:39.08] Of course it wasn't and I also realized I was coming into meetings and voicing those
[00:21:39.08 - 00:21:44.21] ideas and then people over, you know, the course of the meeting were shooting some
[00:21:44.21 - 00:21:50.23] of them down and then I decided maybe I should be the last one to speak because
[00:21:51.02 - 00:21:54.11] the people working here are far smarter than me.
[00:21:56.00 - 00:22:02.00] And I think there's entrepreneurs, we have very similar traits.
[00:22:02.00 - 00:22:06.08] I think a lot of us have attention deficit, I certainly have it.
[00:22:06.08 - 00:22:09.15] And having lots of ideas, I think is a hallmark of that.
[00:22:09.15 - 00:22:16.18] And like being creative and throwing in the next silver bullet that's gonna change
[00:22:16.18 - 00:22:17.17] the world.
[00:22:19.23 - 00:22:22.23] Which leads me to...
[00:22:22.23 - 00:22:27.22] Something else we were discussing before the show and coming to your book, it's a
[00:22:27.23 - 00:22:31.02] nice segue to your book, which is Unicorns Over Rainbows.
[00:22:31.05 - 00:22:35.03] And in your book, you talk about small changes.
[00:22:35.03 - 00:22:40.01] So not these big ideas that are going to change the world, but small changes done,
[00:22:40.02 - 00:22:45.08] I think, which the word percolate comes to mind.
[00:22:45.08 - 00:22:51.21] So small ideas that percolate or simmer or marinate slowly and have lasting changes
[00:22:51.21 - 00:22:53.01] to the culture.
[00:22:53.02 - 00:22:57.14] So tell us more about that good small change framework.
[00:22:57.14 - 00:23:04.00] Yeah, so the way the Good Small Change framework came about was I've got so much
[00:23:04.00 - 00:23:05.15] from so many people.
[00:23:05.15 - 00:23:11.07] So, you know, Patrick Lencioni, Ricardo Semler, you know, all of their books have
[00:23:11.08 - 00:23:13.20] been so impactful for me.
[00:23:13.20 - 00:23:20.03] And I wanted to give something back to the business community.
[00:23:20.18 - 00:23:27.00] But when I sat down to look at what we'd done in the business and I with my
[00:23:27.00 - 00:23:30.12] my leadership team, I wrote a list of all the things that we'd done.
[00:23:30.12 - 00:23:33.23] And so it was, you know, all sorts of changes.
[00:23:33.23 - 00:23:37.13] There was some of it was process, some of it was frameworks, but there was a lot of
[00:23:37.14 - 00:23:39.21] thinking tools and ideas in there as well.
[00:23:39.21 - 00:23:44.08] We ended up with a list of somewhere between 45 and 50 different changes we'd
[00:23:44.08 - 00:23:45.08] made.
[00:23:45.11 - 00:23:50.03] And as we went through each one of them, I realized that all come from somewhere
[00:23:50.03 - 00:23:51.01] else.
[00:23:51.02 - 00:23:54.21] So, you know, this one was from this book, this one was from the seminar.
[00:23:54.21 - 00:23:56.14] And I sat there.
[00:23:57.02 - 00:23:58.11] What's an example?
[00:24:00.00 - 00:24:05.17] The ideal team player, which is from one of Patrick Lencioni's books.
[00:24:05.17 - 00:24:10.14] He has a really nice model for identifying people who are going to work well in a
[00:24:10.14 - 00:24:11.15] collaborative culture.
[00:24:11.15 - 00:24:15.12] So, looking for people who are humble, hungry and smart.
[00:24:15.20 - 00:24:19.14] So, a really simple idea, a really lovely book.
[00:24:21.08 - 00:24:26.05] Patrick's books have been the inspiration for how I wrote my book as well as...
[00:24:26.12 - 00:24:27.17] writing it.
[00:24:27.23 - 00:24:33.16] But so Humble Hungry Smart, the ideal team player would be a really good example.
[00:24:33.17 - 00:24:38.18] And as we went through this list, I got quite despondent.
[00:24:38.18 - 00:24:41.11] I was thinking, well, actually, I haven't done anything.
[00:24:41.11 - 00:24:44.12] There's nothing of value that I can share with the world.
[00:24:44.12 - 00:24:47.14] All I've done is taken other people's ideas.
[00:24:47.18 - 00:24:54.11] And it was that moment of voicing that self -doubt and
[00:24:54.14 - 00:25:02.17] and being vulnerable with my team, that they said, well, isn't what you've done
[00:25:02.17 - 00:25:04.13] implemented these changes well?
[00:25:04.14 - 00:25:09.19] You've been able to implement 45 to 50 changes over the last six years that have
[00:25:09.20 - 00:25:12.01] moved the business forward tremendously.
[00:25:12.02 - 00:25:14.23] Is that something that you could help people with?
[00:25:14.23 - 00:25:19.08] And as I started to think more and more about it, I thought about some of the
[00:25:19.08 - 00:25:24.00] people that I know who have struggled with this stuff and...
[00:25:24.11 - 00:25:27.18] They've read all the books, but they don't seem to be able to make any of the
[00:25:27.18 - 00:25:28.22] changes.
[00:25:28.23 - 00:25:35.19] And so I spent a couple of months with my team working backwards through discovering
[00:25:35.20 - 00:25:39.20] what the process was that we used to make change in the business.
[00:25:39.20 - 00:25:46.13] And I came up with a small framework, the Good Small Change Framework, which is,
[00:25:46.14 - 00:25:47.21] it's three parts.
[00:25:47.21 - 00:25:50.12] So a nice Venn diagram.
[00:25:50.12 - 00:25:53.17] You've got curiosity, accessibility, and safety.
[00:25:53.17 - 00:25:54.05] So.
[00:25:54.05 - 00:25:59.14] Curiosity, so you have to be curious, you have to inspire your team to be curious.
[00:25:59.14 - 00:26:04.10] Accessibility, the ideas have to be easy to understand and easy to transmit
[00:26:04.11 - 00:26:06.17] throughout the organization.
[00:26:06.23 - 00:26:10.21] And then safety, you have to create a safe to fail environment.
[00:26:11.14 - 00:26:15.10] Without a safe to fail environment, no one's going to take the risk to try and
[00:26:15.11 - 00:26:17.02] implement these ideas.
[00:26:17.20 - 00:26:22.01] And all of these things drive the change down to be smaller and smaller.
[00:26:22.02 - 00:26:24.08] So the smaller the change is,
[00:26:25.17 - 00:26:30.08] the safer the environment is to try them because if you can get the change small
[00:26:30.08 - 00:26:33.10] enough, then if it doesn't work, it just feels like learning.
[00:26:33.11 - 00:26:35.14] It doesn't feel catastrophic.
[00:26:35.20 - 00:26:39.17] If it's small enough, then you're not feeding the farm.
[00:26:39.17 - 00:26:42.21] You're not sitting in front of your team saying, if we don't make this change, the
[00:26:42.21 - 00:26:44.23] whole business is going to fail.
[00:26:45.06 - 00:26:48.01] Those things I've done just paralyze people.
[00:26:48.02 - 00:26:54.00] They're too scared to try because if they try and fail, then the business failing is
[00:26:54.00 - 00:26:54.23] on them.
[00:26:54.23 - 00:26:55.19] So...
[00:26:56.06 - 00:27:00.06] Safety drives the size of the change down.
[00:27:00.12 - 00:27:05.11] Accessibility, making the change easy to understand, also drives the size down.
[00:27:05.17 - 00:27:07.08] And curiosity.
[00:27:07.08 - 00:27:14.00] I think people are much more curious about what one small thing will do for the
[00:27:14.00 - 00:27:19.03] business than a large change that they just struggle to see their part in.
[00:27:20.15 - 00:27:24.08] There is kind of a fourth part that underlies the framework and that's
[00:27:24.08 - 00:27:25.07] empathy.
[00:27:25.08 - 00:27:27.15] None of this works without empathy.
[00:27:29.02 - 00:27:33.23] You have to be able to feel how your team's feeling about the change.
[00:27:34.15 - 00:27:40.19] For no other reason than to have the rate of change at the right and sustainable
[00:27:40.20 - 00:27:42.11] level for them.
[00:27:43.14 - 00:27:48.18] One of the stories that I tell in the book and when I'm unpacking the model, so the
[00:27:48.18 - 00:27:49.14] book has two parts.
[00:27:49.15 - 00:27:50.17] It's got a fable.
[00:27:50.17 - 00:27:54.11] At the start and then a description of the model.
[00:27:54.11 - 00:27:55.15] And the book's very small.
[00:27:55.15 - 00:27:58.07] I've noticed over the years that people really love getting small books.
[00:27:58.08 - 00:27:59.12] They don't like getting big books.
[00:27:59.12 - 00:28:02.22] So I always set out to write a small book.
[00:28:02.23 - 00:28:06.23] And so one of the stories I tell is about how I developed my empathy.
[00:28:07.23 - 00:28:12.17] As I was saying earlier, we used the Clifton Strengths Finder with our team.
[00:28:12.20 - 00:28:17.20] And when I originally did it, empathy was right down the bottom for me.
[00:28:17.20 - 00:28:21.08] So it was like... number 34 out of 34.
[00:28:22.03 - 00:28:27.00] You know, my empathy was so poor that my sister once told me that I was a cold,
[00:28:27.00 - 00:28:28.12] heartless robot.
[00:28:30.14 - 00:28:34.02] And my empathy was so poor that didn't even bother me at the time.
[00:28:34.15 - 00:28:40.06] But over the years, I realized that my lack of empathy was holding me back as a
[00:28:40.06 - 00:28:46.14] leader, like really holding me back, just catastrophically holding me back.
[00:28:46.14 - 00:28:47.02] And so...
[00:28:47.03 - 00:28:53.00] I worked really hard to improve my empathy and the way I did that was to bring people
[00:28:53.00 - 00:28:57.22] onto my leadership team, onto the navigators who were very, very empathetic
[00:28:57.23 - 00:29:04.19] and then just shutting up a lot more so that when something came up, letting them
[00:29:04.20 - 00:29:10.20] tell me how other people were feeling, letting them tell me what was going on and
[00:29:10.20 - 00:29:13.23] learning from them how to be empathetic.
[00:29:14.09 - 00:29:18.17] And over, so I originally took Clifton Strengths Finder 2016.
[00:29:18.17 - 00:29:24.09] I took it again in September last year and my empathy had gone from the bottom to
[00:29:24.09 - 00:29:25.14] number nine.
[00:29:25.14 - 00:29:28.02] So not quite the top, but I'll take it, you know.
[00:29:28.02 - 00:29:29.09] That is a huge change.
[00:29:29.09 - 00:29:34.09] Knowing the framework and having done it a few times myself, I know it's an enormous
[00:29:34.09 - 00:29:35.17] change.
[00:29:38.06 - 00:29:39.17] Yeah, go ahead.
[00:29:40.00 - 00:29:46.07] I wasn't really happy to just take the data because I think, there can be a feeling
[00:29:46.08 - 00:29:53.11] sometimes like, you know, as the numbers change, but is this reflected in who I am
[00:29:53.11 - 00:29:55.00] as a person to the people around me?
[00:29:55.00 - 00:29:58.23] And so the way I went and validated that was going out and talking to the people
[00:29:58.23 - 00:30:03.19] who'd worked with me for a long time and just asking them, you know, did they
[00:30:03.20 - 00:30:07.05] remember what it was like when they first started working with me?
[00:30:07.14 - 00:30:08.13] How have I changed?
[00:30:08.14 - 00:30:10.11] What's different now?
[00:30:10.11 - 00:30:16.03] And the number one thing that people said was that I was just way calmer.
[00:30:16.03 - 00:30:18.22] Like I just had a calmness that I'd never had before.
[00:30:18.23 - 00:30:25.09] Before I was frenetic and crazy and talking and no space for anyone else.
[00:30:25.09 - 00:30:30.12] And now what they have is this space that they can inhabit in the business that they
[00:30:30.12 - 00:30:36.18] can bring themselves to that I'm enabling, I think.
[00:30:37.06 - 00:30:38.17] Helping enable.
[00:30:38.20 - 00:30:41.03] And so they find me much more fun to work with.
[00:30:41.03 - 00:30:48.03] They find me much more thoughtful and that's why they've stayed in the business.
[00:30:48.20 - 00:30:52.14] So empathy sort of underlines the whole framework really.
[00:30:52.14 - 00:30:53.23] It's really important.
[00:30:53.23 - 00:30:59.16] And I think the reason I tell that story is because I certainly felt, you know, six
[00:30:59.17 - 00:31:03.14] or seven years ago that my empathy was where it was and that was it.
[00:31:03.14 - 00:31:05.07] And there was, you know, that's just...
[00:31:05.08 - 00:31:07.18] who I was and I didn't have an opportunity to change it.
[00:31:07.18 - 00:31:12.10] And I just want to share with people that, you know, if they do want to change it,
[00:31:12.11 - 00:31:17.09] and I highly recommend they do, that it's a journey worth going on and it does work.
[00:31:17.21 - 00:31:20.20] I can also relate to that.
[00:31:23.02 - 00:31:27.06] Years ago, I had done a very bad fire.
[00:31:29.14 - 00:31:38.23] It was someone who I knew wasn't growing with the business and wasn't a good fit to
[00:31:38.23 - 00:31:44.17] the values and the values were becoming much more clear.
[00:31:46.09 - 00:31:52.09] Crystal clear to me and I was seeing the discrepancy and so I knew that you know
[00:31:52.09 - 00:32:00.08] that person got us a long way but they weren't gonna you know take us beyond that
[00:32:01.08 - 00:32:08.01] what got you here won't get got you there like Marshall Marshall Gold Goldsmith is
[00:32:08.02 - 00:32:14.05] that name I forget so I was
[00:32:14.23 - 00:32:20.17] I couldn't face up to the truth, I couldn't have a difficult conversation
[00:32:20.17 - 00:32:21.23] with them.
[00:32:21.23 - 00:32:24.17] And I completely mishandled that fire.
[00:32:25.02 - 00:32:30.06] So, of course that person went later on and gave us a one -star rating on
[00:32:30.06 - 00:32:34.02] Glassdoor, which was like an alarm bell.
[00:32:34.02 - 00:32:40.11] And at that point I had also joined an entrepreneurs organization, EO, and was
[00:32:40.11 - 00:32:45.03] also started reading like you and becoming much more conscious about...
[00:32:45.20 - 00:32:49.09] systems and processes and how to properly run a business.
[00:32:50.20 - 00:32:59.05] And I almost maybe unawares went into a mission of improving the culture.
[00:32:59.05 - 00:33:06.03] And I also came from a state of a status of very low empathy.
[00:33:06.03 - 00:33:10.15] And I was, you know, the idea person coming up with framework after framework
[00:33:10.15 - 00:33:13.07] and thinking, we should do this and we should do that.
[00:33:15.11 - 00:33:23.23] And my HR person, Sarah, she was the counterbalance.
[00:33:23.23 - 00:33:25.20] She has extreme empathy.
[00:33:25.20 - 00:33:31.14] She's the, in a sense, the psychologist who's there to listen to people and really
[00:33:31.14 - 00:33:34.21] connect with them and understand how they feel and how these changes might affect
[00:33:34.21 - 00:33:35.11] them.
[00:33:35.11 - 00:33:38.02] So she was really pushing me back.
[00:33:38.02 - 00:33:41.23] And that helped me greatly in understand...
[00:33:41.23 - 00:33:48.04] how to marry these two elements, which is the engineering systems element, which is,
[00:33:48.05 - 00:33:54.08] you know, everything in boxes and everything in rhythms and everything kind
[00:33:54.08 - 00:33:58.08] of in Venn diagrams, let's say.
[00:33:58.14 - 00:34:03.04] And then there's the empathy part, which is the messiness of how our brains work
[00:34:03.05 - 00:34:09.11] and how we are imperfect, but also perfect in our imperfections.
[00:34:09.20 - 00:34:20.11] And how a what seems like a logical performance review scheme or an incentive
[00:34:20.11 - 00:34:24.11] scheme or a bonus scheme or whatever might very easily backfire if you really
[00:34:24.11 - 00:34:28.19] understand how people feel and how they would welcome or not welcome that change.
[00:34:28.20 - 00:34:32.02] So for me, you know, I learned think...
[00:34:32.05 - 00:34:38.16] Thanks to Sarah, the partner that I had, that we went through this journey together
[00:34:38.17 - 00:34:39.15] in improving culture.
[00:34:39.15 - 00:34:44.03] And over time we got it to 4.6 stars, which has been for a few years now.
[00:34:46.06 - 00:34:55.00] I wasn't brave enough to take it further and actually only started reading about
[00:34:55.00 - 00:34:57.17] self -managed organizations.
[00:34:57.17 - 00:35:01.02] After having transitioned the business to another CEO.
[00:35:01.02 - 00:35:03.22] And so now, you know, I don't run the business.
[00:35:03.23 - 00:35:11.14] I just help her be the best CEO she can be and keep my ideas to myself about
[00:35:11.14 - 00:35:13.08] progressive cultures.
[00:35:15.02 - 00:35:17.23] So back to you, Nathan.
[00:35:20.12 - 00:35:31.23] What's one of the hard things in running a self -managed business that challenged
[00:35:32.14 - 00:35:33.09] you?
[00:35:33.15 - 00:35:35.17] That's a really good question.
[00:35:36.08 - 00:35:37.03] I think.
[00:35:37.04 - 00:35:42.23] Trying to balance the needs of the business, my personal needs as the owner
[00:35:42.23 - 00:35:45.06] of the business and the needs of the people.
[00:35:45.17 - 00:35:49.22] And finding that balance in a way that's fair.
[00:35:49.23 - 00:35:54.17] I think it's a constant tightrope to walk.
[00:35:55.00 - 00:36:02.01] As I've stepped further and further back, purposely to create some spaces for other
[00:36:02.03 - 00:36:02.17] people to...
[00:36:02.18 - 00:36:07.20] step into, it can be quite easy to feel like you're not adding as much value to
[00:36:07.20 - 00:36:09.09] the business anymore.
[00:36:10.02 - 00:36:13.21] And for me, that can be quite hard.
[00:36:14.02 - 00:36:19.18] You know, the business still provides the livelihood for myself and my family, and I
[00:36:19.18 - 00:36:21.15] want to be delivering value.
[00:36:21.18 - 00:36:28.10] And so to sometimes be saying, no, I'm not going to do that because if I do that, no
[00:36:28.11 - 00:36:32.18] one else has got a chance to step up and leaving a gap.
[00:36:32.23 - 00:36:37.23] A very obvious gap in capability and capacity in the business and have that
[00:36:37.23 - 00:36:41.18] affect the business but force a change.
[00:36:41.18 - 00:36:48.12] I found that quite hard but time and time again it's been valuable.
[00:36:48.12 - 00:36:53.14] I would say as an example of that our sales process, our sales cycles are
[00:36:53.14 - 00:36:59.21] incredibly long and I stopped doing sales
[00:37:01.00 - 00:37:03.05] probably 12 years ago.
[00:37:03.12 - 00:37:12.09] And for businesses like ours, 25 to 30 people, it's a fairly contained market.
[00:37:12.09 - 00:37:16.06] The CEO or the founder is usually the best salesperson.
[00:37:16.14 - 00:37:19.17] It's just kind of how it is.
[00:37:19.17 - 00:37:25.09] And so my conscious decision not to do sales had a real impact on the business.
[00:37:25.09 - 00:37:30.14] But I knew that if I continued to do sales, there would be no way to build a...
[00:37:30.14 - 00:37:36.20] a highly effective sales team and especially a sales team that I, of the
[00:37:36.20 - 00:37:37.14] kind that I wanted.
[00:37:37.15 - 00:37:44.05] So I stepped out of sales and then it's taken more than 10 years to build an
[00:37:44.05 - 00:37:46.15] effective sales function in the business.
[00:37:47.02 - 00:37:52.17] And that's a long time to be, to have a key part of the business underperforming.
[00:37:52.23 - 00:37:55.14] It wasn't because of the people in the business.
[00:37:55.14 - 00:37:59.04] It was just, we just didn't, we just didn't know how to do it.
[00:37:59.05 - 00:38:00.00] You know.
[00:38:00.08 - 00:38:03.03] Yeah, I can relate to that too.
[00:38:03.18 - 00:38:13.14] I tried, I think, maybe three or four or five people to replace me as founder and
[00:38:13.14 - 00:38:21.20] effectively head of sales in maybe for a long time, historically.
[00:38:21.20 - 00:38:26.05] And I thought that sales is something you just hand over and the other person takes
[00:38:26.05 - 00:38:37.11] over and you know, they have this secret telepathy to me knowing exactly how I
[00:38:37.11 - 00:38:41.23] think about customers and sales and that they can just listen to a few words coming
[00:38:41.23 - 00:38:44.05] out of my mouth and pick it up.
[00:38:46.18 - 00:38:51.00] And that's why so many people failed because I was assuming too much, I was not
[00:38:51.00 - 00:38:52.10] guiding them.
[00:38:52.11 - 00:38:59.11] And eventually what did work was doing the hard work and documenting all the sales
[00:38:59.11 - 00:39:07.00] process and all the pricing and all the variants and products and customer
[00:39:07.00 - 00:39:15.02] personas and profiles and the scripts that you used to call and speak to clients and
[00:39:15.02 - 00:39:16.14] it's just process.
[00:39:17.00 - 00:39:23.16] And after a big part of that process was done, then the next person came in, who's
[00:39:23.17 - 00:39:27.17] now our CEO, she came from a sales team.
[00:39:29.08 - 00:39:35.20] And she really took over the sales team and did a very good job.
[00:39:37.09 - 00:39:43.02] So another question I wanted to ask you is,
[00:39:44.02 - 00:39:47.18] You also strike me as someone who's very calm and
[00:39:47.18 - 00:39:53.04] you know, you have this serenity to you, this stoicism.
[00:39:54.01 - 00:40:01.02] How does living in New Zealand, especially you live in a seaside town, right?
[00:40:02.16 - 00:40:10.06] How does that affect the culture you've built and how you see the world and how
[00:40:10.06 - 00:40:11.17] you see the person you want to be?
[00:40:11.18 - 00:40:13.13] Yeah, that's interesting.
[00:40:13.13 - 00:40:19.07] So I'm in Dunedin and this is where I was born and grew up.
[00:40:19.07 - 00:40:25.13] And Dunedin was settled by the Scottish largely, Scottish Presbyterians.
[00:40:26.09 - 00:40:27.05] And
[00:40:27.12 - 00:40:32.10] You know, Mark Twain visited Dunedin and he said the Scots were on their way to
[00:40:32.10 - 00:40:39.04] heaven and they came to Dunedin and they stopped and didn't go any further because
[00:40:39.04 - 00:40:41.04] they thought they'd found paradise.
[00:40:41.10 - 00:40:42.06] So.
[00:40:42.09 - 00:40:48.13] My whole childhood has been informed by the culture of the Scots.
[00:40:48.19 - 00:40:55.20] And my grandfather came from Glasgow during the Depression, just him and his
[00:40:56.19 - 00:40:57.21] sisters.
[00:40:58.12 - 00:41:03.09] My great grandparents came and farmed in New Zealand in the late 1800s.
[00:41:03.09 - 00:41:09.00] And this was a very tough, tough place to come.
[00:41:09.00 - 00:41:10.15] You know, the...
[00:41:11.00 - 00:41:18.00] They'd jump on a boat and it would be six weeks to three months to get to New
[00:41:18.01 - 00:41:18.18] Zealand.
[00:41:18.19 - 00:41:21.23] And they'd been sold New Zealand based on some paintings.
[00:41:22.00 - 00:41:25.15] And when they got here, it wasn't necessarily what was promised.
[00:41:26.15 - 00:41:32.06] But the Scottish sort of stoicism, you know, you just make it work.
[00:41:32.09 - 00:41:35.19] Yeah, there's not a lot of space in life for complaining.
[00:41:35.19 - 00:41:38.03] It's very egalitarian.
[00:41:38.09 - 00:41:40.00] So...
[00:41:40.06 - 00:41:42.12] no one's better than anyone else.
[00:41:44.10 - 00:41:51.11] You know, sometimes that the American sort of putting yourself out there and being
[00:41:53.09 - 00:41:58.18] confident, it's very antithetical to us over here.
[00:42:00.18 - 00:42:07.14] We're taught to keep our head down, be humble, and do the work.
[00:42:07.15 - 00:42:08.12] So, you know.
[00:42:08.12 - 00:42:11.00] You're valuable as long as you're working hard.
[00:42:11.00 - 00:42:12.07] That's what it's all about.
[00:42:12.07 - 00:42:13.15] It's how hard you work.
[00:42:15.06 - 00:42:22.07] But at the same time, there's a warmth down here and everybody's got time to
[00:42:23.12 - 00:42:24.10] chat.
[00:42:24.15 - 00:42:30.10] So the reason I came back to Dunedin, so we arrived back here four years ago after
[00:42:30.15 - 00:42:33.18] living overseas a wee bit and working in Wellington.
[00:42:34.01 - 00:42:38.08] And what I missed about Dunedin was that people just aren't really that into their
[00:42:38.09 - 00:42:39.12] jobs.
[00:42:40.00 - 00:42:45.11] Like work's important and they want to do a good job, but they never...
[00:42:45.12 - 00:42:48.11] are too busy to stop and have a 15 minute chat.
[00:42:48.12 - 00:42:50.02] It doesn't matter what they're doing.
[00:42:50.03 - 00:42:53.15] Like the guys who deliver the gas bottles, if you're out there, they'll stop for a
[00:42:53.15 - 00:42:54.09] chat.
[00:42:54.09 - 00:42:59.22] You know, if you're in a cafe and waitress is serving you and you strike up a
[00:42:59.22 - 00:43:01.14] conversation, they'll stop for a chat.
[00:43:01.15 - 00:43:07.21] And so that idea that, yeah, working was important and, you know, the Presbyterian
[00:43:07.21 - 00:43:11.07] work ethic or the Protestant work ethic is all about, you know, that's where your
[00:43:11.07 - 00:43:12.21] value comes from.
[00:43:12.21 - 00:43:15.16] But relationships are super important as well.
[00:43:17.00 - 00:43:19.22] And that's what I've taken through, I think, to the business.
[00:43:19.22 - 00:43:24.12] Our core focus is relationships, the relationships with each other, the
[00:43:24.12 - 00:43:26.10] relationships with our clients.
[00:43:26.10 - 00:43:30.10] And every decision we make is through the lens of how does this improve the
[00:43:30.10 - 00:43:31.15] relationship?
[00:43:32.15 - 00:43:39.15] The business itself is about 50 % people who were born in New Zealand and 50 % new
[00:43:40.12 - 00:43:41.19] New Zealanders.
[00:43:41.19 - 00:43:45.09] So, you know, looking around the room, there's...
[00:43:46.03 - 00:43:53.03] Lin's from Myanmar, Jang Yil's from Saskatoon, Saskatchewan, Canada,
[00:43:55.06 - 00:44:00.15] Clarissa's from the Philippines, Gus's from Brazil, and on and on.
[00:44:00.15 - 00:44:04.15] And so there's this international multicultural cast.
[00:44:05.12 - 00:44:11.16] But they all have one thing in common, and that is their ability to be warm with
[00:44:11.16 - 00:44:16.09] everybody, their ability to make people feel like they're the most
[00:44:17.04 - 00:44:24.03] important person in the room and how much value they derive from having high quality
[00:44:24.03 - 00:44:25.18] relationships in their life.
[00:44:27.09 - 00:44:32.07] So, you know, it's often not till you get quite a bit older that you're able to go
[00:44:32.07 - 00:44:35.19] back and pick out those threads from your childhood to see how they've informed you.
[00:44:35.19 - 00:44:38.15] And it's only in the last few years that I've really started to think about this
[00:44:38.15 - 00:44:39.12] stuff.
[00:44:39.18 - 00:44:45.06] I've always struggled with the Protestant work ethic of, you know, unless you're
[00:44:45.06 - 00:44:50.13] working like right at the moment, you're not doing anything valuable because I
[00:44:50.13 - 00:44:54.07] think so much of the value that I feel like I bring to an organization is
[00:44:54.07 - 00:44:55.07] thinking.
[00:44:55.10 - 00:45:00.16] And not even necessarily consciously thinking, maybe letting my unconscious
[00:45:00.16 - 00:45:03.21] mind dwell on some problems for a couple of weeks.
[00:45:04.06 - 00:45:10.19] And to the outside world, that can sometimes look like not doing very much at
[00:45:10.19 - 00:45:11.04] all.
[00:45:11.05 - 00:45:20.10] Yeah, I really value this relationships above or at least on an equal footing to
[00:45:20.10 - 00:45:24.11] work, to output to productivity that you say.
[00:45:24.12 - 00:45:26.02] It's in my mind
[00:45:26.03 - 00:45:36.00] an ethic that has been lost in the last few decades as we talk about productivity
[00:45:36.00 - 00:45:41.21] and doing more and technology and we can be, you know, much...
[00:45:42.13 - 00:45:49.06] faster, cheaper, better versions of our older selves and we forget that humanity,
[00:45:49.06 - 00:45:54.21] relationships, empathy, connection is what makes us human, it's not the work itself
[00:45:55.09 - 00:46:05.22] and it's what unites us and recently in EO I've heard this phrase connection before
[00:46:05.22 - 00:46:10.18] content so before you talk about...
[00:46:10.18 - 00:46:15.23] anything work related, you need to establish a basic connection within the
[00:46:16.00 - 00:46:17.15] people you're working with.
[00:46:18.13 - 00:46:25.01] And now when I go into a meeting and we start just talking about work, it seems so
[00:46:25.12 - 00:46:35.23] forceful and inauthentic and that, you know, we all have good days or bad days.
[00:46:36.09 - 00:46:37.21] But unless we...
[00:46:37.21 - 00:46:43.16] talk about a little bit about ourselves and how we are and how we're feeling at
[00:46:43.16 - 00:46:44.14] that moment.
[00:46:44.15 - 00:46:50.07] I think that the rest of the conversation is so dry and lacks meaning to a great
[00:46:50.07 - 00:46:51.09] extent.
[00:46:52.18 - 00:47:00.18] So with that, Nathan, I want to thank you for being part of this
[00:47:01.06 - 00:47:08.21] this podcast, I am humbly learning from you and learning from your stoicism and
[00:47:08.21 - 00:47:13.01] your balance between relationships and work and output.
[00:47:13.04 - 00:47:16.19] Is there somewhere where people can find out more about you?
[00:47:16.19 - 00:47:19.18] Again, your book is Unicorns Over Rainbows.
[00:47:20.00 - 00:47:21.18] I guess.
[00:47:22.07 - 00:47:25.01] Say this is what the book looks like.
[00:47:25.01 - 00:47:26.16] If you want to try and find it.
[00:47:26.16 - 00:47:30.20] It's of course, when you type unicorns over rainbows in Amazon, you get lots of
[00:47:30.21 - 00:47:32.16] kids picture books.
[00:47:32.16 - 00:47:35.03] It's not the world's best title.
[00:47:35.03 - 00:47:40.01] And I have a website, nathandonaldson.com.
[00:47:40.10 - 00:47:45.17] One thing people may notice is that I just don't really like to talk about myself
[00:47:45.18 - 00:47:46.09] very much.
[00:47:46.09 - 00:47:48.15] So the website's not really that great.
[00:47:48.18 - 00:47:50.11] In terms of finding out stuff.
[00:47:50.12 - 00:47:54.11] But I love talking to people and making connections.
[00:47:54.12 - 00:47:58.15] So I'd love for people to reach out to me, to have conversations.
[00:47:58.15 - 00:48:01.05] I love to jump on Zoom and talk.
[00:48:01.06 - 00:48:05.06] And isn't it amazing that you're in Athens, I'm in Dunedin, we're on
[00:48:05.06 - 00:48:09.14] completely the opposite sides of the world, and we're able to do this.
[00:48:09.15 - 00:48:16.21] And so I really want to make businesses better places for people to work in.
[00:48:16.21 - 00:48:19.01] So if you're someone who
[00:48:19.07 - 00:48:23.10] who's on that journey and wants to have a chat, then yeah, get in touch.
[00:48:23.10 - 00:48:29.06] Thank you Nathan, thank you for your generosity and being generous with your
[00:48:29.06 - 00:48:30.10] time as well.
[00:48:32.19 - 00:48:35.21] Thank you to all of those who listen to us.
[00:48:35.21 - 00:48:40.04] If you like the show, you can support us by telling your friends about it, or you
[00:48:40.04 - 00:48:42.18] can leave a comment in your favorite podcast app.
[00:48:42.18 - 00:48:46.05] You can also watch us if you're just listening to us right now.
[00:48:46.06 - 00:48:52.22] You can go to YouTube and the channel is {RethinkCulture.
[00:48:52.22 - 00:48:58.15] So youtube.com slash at sign rethink culture and keep, keep leading
[00:48:58.15 - 00:49:02.18] as I like to say, keep creating happier workplaces for you and for the
[00:49:02.18 - 00:49:03.16] those around you.
[00:49:03.16 - 00:49:04.16] Thank you.