Rethink Culture

[00:00:08.15 - 00:00:12.16] Good morning, good afternoon and good evening. Welcome to Rethink Culture, the
[00:00:12.16 - 00:00:16.21] podcast that shines the spotlight on leaders of businesses that people love to
[00:00:16.21 - 00:00:22.12] work for. My name is Andreas Konstantinou. I'm a micromanager turned servant leader
[00:00:22.12 - 00:00:26.12] who developed a passion for workplace culture. And I'm also the founder of
[00:00:26.12 - 00:00:29.07] Rethink Culture, a company that helps businesses create healthier workplace
[00:00:29.07 - 00:00:35.12] culture by turning their culture into a KPI so they can manage and measure. Today,
[00:00:35.12 - 00:00:41.10] I have the very much pleasure of welcoming Richard Sheridan, founder and CEO of Menlo
[00:00:41.10 - 00:00:46.15] Innovations, a software company in Michigan, also known as a Chief
[00:00:46.15 - 00:00:52.00] Storyteller in his own company. He's written two books, Joy, Inc. and Chief Joy
[00:00:52.00 - 00:00:58.06] Officer. And what's unusual about Menlo Innovations is they have around about 3000
[00:00:58.06 - 00:01:05.12] visitors every year coming to the company just to witness the culture. And Richard
[00:01:05.12 - 00:01:12.09] also tells me he has many hobbies, skiing, golf and a pilot's license, as well as
[00:01:12.09 - 00:01:18.15] being a father to three daughters, a grandfather to four granddaughters, and
[00:01:18.15 - 00:01:24.15] with one more grandchild on the way. And with all of that, Rich, very welcome to
[00:01:24.15 - 00:01:26.04] the Rethink Culture podcast.
[00:01:26.04 - 00:01:28.00] Thank you, Andreas. Great to be here.
[00:01:28.00 - 00:01:28.21] So where do we
[00:01:28.21 - 00:01:35.15] start? Tell us a little bit about Joy, or actually not before the book, tell us a
[00:01:35.15 - 00:01:45.21] bit about Menlo Innovations. And what led you to the journey of founding Menlo
[00:01:45.21 - 00:01:47.12] Innovations?
[00:01:47.12 - 00:01:53.22] Yeah, so Menlo was founded in 2001. It is my first sort of real
[00:01:53.22 - 00:01:58.00] entrepreneurial venture. I had a few other things I dabbled in when I was much
[00:01:58.00 - 00:02:06.03] younger, but this was the for real one. And we founded the company with a crazy
[00:02:06.03 - 00:02:10.15] big mission. We wanted to end human suffering in the world as it relates to
[00:02:10.15 - 00:02:17.03] technology, by returning joy to both technology and to the teams that design it
[00:02:17.03 - 00:02:18.09] and build it.
[00:02:18.09 - 00:02:20.21] So you were very conscious about that mission when you started?
[00:02:22.10 - 00:02:27.07] Absolutely, yes. That was a mission statement we crafted in our earliest
[00:02:27.07 - 00:02:29.05] months of existence.
[00:02:29.05 - 00:02:34.12] And later would come to describe it to many of those tour visitors who come and
[00:02:34.12 - 00:02:39.13] visit, that they have come to a place that has very intentionally created a culture
[00:02:39.13 - 00:02:43.18] focused on what we like to call the business value of joy.
[00:02:43.22 - 00:02:47.14] And what were some
[00:02:47.14 - 00:02:56.08] of the early influences you had that maybe sparked that passion about creating joy?
[00:02:56.08 - 00:03:00.22] Were you dissatisfied? Were you disillusioned with life at work from your
[00:03:00.22 - 00:03:04.02] previous work perhaps?
[00:03:04.02 - 00:03:09.01] Yeah, you know, I had this fantastic experience when I was
[00:03:09.01 - 00:03:15.07] young. I touched a computer for the first time in 1971 when I was just a kid in high
[00:03:15.07 - 00:03:21.13] school. I was 13 years old. I know a lot of younger people these days are amazed
[00:03:21.13 - 00:03:26.04] that there were in fact computers back in 1971. They're a little different than they
[00:03:26.04 - 00:03:31.19] are today, of course. But in those early days, I just fell in love with the idea of
[00:03:31.19 - 00:03:37.13] programming. It was one of these just mind -blowing moments. Probably, I bet a lot of
[00:03:37.13 - 00:03:41.08] programmers can relate to that. The first time they had a computer, do what they
[00:03:41.08 - 00:03:45.20] told it to do and it worked. They were like, oh my gosh, I did this. And it felt
[00:03:45.20 - 00:03:52.01] very artistic to me. It felt very creative. I had a wonderful teacher who
[00:03:52.01 - 00:04:00.07] kind of really unleashed a creative spirit inside of me. By the next year in high
[00:04:00.07 - 00:04:06.08] school, I'd written a gaming program to play fantasy baseball on the computer. I
[00:04:06.08 - 00:04:10.10] typed in all of the major league baseball players into the computer so my friends
[00:04:10.10 - 00:04:14.10] and I could play our favorite teams against one another in the cold Michigan
[00:04:14.10 - 00:04:18.01] winter months on the computer. And I entered that program into a programming
[00:04:18.01 - 00:04:24.10] contest and I won the international gaming category for that program. And the people
[00:04:24.10 - 00:04:28.10] who were supplying us the compute power wanted to see the kid who won the contest
[00:04:28.10 - 00:04:33.23] because it was a pretty big feather in their cap too. Because doing computer
[00:04:33.23 - 00:04:38.20] science education in high school in the early 70s was a little bit unusual. I just
[00:04:38.20 - 00:04:43.10] happened to be in the right place at the right time. And the people who ran the
[00:04:43.10 - 00:04:47.17] computing center were the leader of that group, came to visit the kid who won the
[00:04:47.17 - 00:04:52.10] contest. And he asked me a fateful question. He said, do you want to come
[00:04:52.10 - 00:04:58.10] work for me? And I said, doing what? And he says, programming. I said, you can get
[00:04:58.10 - 00:05:03.22] paid for doing this? And so I got my first job as a programmer before I could even
[00:05:03.22 - 00:05:12.14] drive a car. And it was a wonderful first several years of programming experience.
[00:05:12.14 - 00:05:19.05] It was very heady time. Here I am, this kid that's building email systems and
[00:05:19.05 - 00:05:23.23] other things for the school systems that we worked in. I started having teams of
[00:05:23.23 - 00:05:29.17] people working around me. We were just, it was just that kind of energized, creative
[00:05:29.17 - 00:05:34.07] atmosphere that all of us probably dream about in our careers. And I had it. I had
[00:05:34.07 - 00:05:40.02] it at a very young age. I realized, you know, I didn't have enough education in
[00:05:40.02 - 00:05:45.07] computer science to really go far. So I went to the University of Michigan, got a
[00:05:45.07 - 00:05:49.16] couple of degrees in computer science and computer engineering and launched a career
[00:05:49.16 - 00:05:54.14] that, you know, I thought, boy, I've got the world by the tail. By the time I
[00:05:54.14 - 00:05:58.23] graduated from college, I had about seven years of programming experience. You know,
[00:05:58.23 - 00:06:04.01] I've got two degrees from a really big deal university in computer science. And
[00:06:04.01 - 00:06:08.08] it's an industry that's just about to take off, right? The PCs were just coming out
[00:06:08.08 - 00:06:13.08] and all this, right? I've got the world by the tail. It didn't take long before I
[00:06:13.08 - 00:06:19.14] fell into what I now call a deep trough of disillusionment about the industry, where
[00:06:19.14 - 00:06:24.05] I started seeing big problems. And I thought they were my fault, right? I
[00:06:24.05 - 00:06:28.13] thought I was the one that was, maybe I'm not qualified. Maybe I'm not as good at
[00:06:28.13 - 00:06:33.04] this as I thought I was. Because we were missing deadlines. We were blowing
[00:06:33.04 - 00:06:39.19] budgets. We were working through the night. We were delivering crappy quality.
[00:06:39.19 - 00:06:44.13] The users were unhappy. We missed the mark on what the company wanted us to build.
[00:06:44.13 - 00:06:47.22] And the marketing and sales people are complaining. The customers are
[00:06:47.22 - 00:06:53.10] complaining. The people who worked for me were complaining. Everybody was unhappy. I
[00:06:53.10 - 00:06:57.22] would go home after very long nights. My wife would look at tired me and she'd say,
[00:06:58.17 - 00:07:02.13] you don't look happy. And I said, I'm not. And she said, what are you going to do
[00:07:02.13 - 00:07:08.16] about it? I said, I don't know. And I was scared. I mean, this was what I knew. This
[00:07:08.16 - 00:07:12.11] is what I'd gone to school for. This was putting a roof over our head. This is what
[00:07:12.11 - 00:07:16.23] was, you know, building a life for our young family at that time. And I thought,
[00:07:16.23 - 00:07:23.22] what am I going to do? And I contemplated in those, sort of my late 20s, early 30s,
[00:07:23.22 - 00:07:27.08] maybe I should just get out of the industry. Maybe I should find something
[00:07:27.08 - 00:07:35.11] else. And whatever wiring is inside of me, part of it is optimism. Part of it was a
[00:07:35.11 - 00:07:41.08] belief that if there's this big a problem, there's probably some grand solution
[00:07:41.08 - 00:07:47.10] waiting to be found. And so I started reading a lot of books, but not books on
[00:07:47.10 - 00:07:54.19] technology. I've started reading books on teamwork and management and design
[00:07:54.19 - 00:08:01.20] thinking and leadership. And what I realized in reading those books was the
[00:08:01.20 - 00:08:06.07] challenge I faced and the challenge that most people in our industry still face to
[00:08:06.07 - 00:08:11.19] this day is not a technological challenge. It's a challenge of how do we organize the
[00:08:11.19 - 00:08:18.04] humans more effectively. And that became my passionate pursuit. I started consuming
[00:08:18.04 - 00:08:25.17] books on these topics. I didn't know what I was looking for exactly. I'd had that
[00:08:25.17 - 00:08:31.10] youthful experience that really sort of set my brain for, I know what's possible.
[00:08:31.10 - 00:08:37.23] I wanted to get back to that. But I also know my wiring well enough that when I'm
[00:08:37.23 - 00:08:46.01] in search mode like that, I will know it when I see it. And that started to happen
[00:08:46.01 - 00:08:50.07] much later in my career and would ultimately lead to the creation of Menlo
[00:08:50.07 - 00:08:51.05] Innovations.
[00:08:52.00 - 00:09:00.20] You realized you wanted to build a better workplace for software development. Was
[00:09:00.20 - 00:09:02.21] that in your 20s?
[00:09:02.21 - 00:09:07.09] Yeah, you know, I had this dream as a student at Michigan, you
[00:09:07.09 - 00:09:13.05] know, when I was in my early 20s, I just had this picture in my head of what do I
[00:09:13.05 - 00:09:19.05] want my work life to look like? And I thought to myself back then, just dreaming
[00:09:19.05 - 00:09:25.05] my brain, a big opening collaborative work environment, a place filled with human
[00:09:25.05 - 00:09:29.17] energy, a lot of collaboration, doing interesting, new, innovative things
[00:09:29.17 - 00:09:36.02] together, accomplishing big goals, not as individuals, but as a team. Because that's
[00:09:36.02 - 00:09:41.02] a bit of what I experienced when I was that kid still in high school. And I
[00:09:41.02 - 00:09:46.14] thought, I can do that again. And yet, my career looked the exact opposite. We were
[00:09:46.14 - 00:09:52.05] all isolated in little cubes and offices. And we were, you know, failing to
[00:09:52.05 - 00:09:56.14] understand what customers actually need. And we were shipping products before they
[00:09:56.14 - 00:10:01.12] were ready. And we didn't have any processes for quality that were worth
[00:10:01.12 - 00:10:08.06] anything at all. We did a terrible job recruiting and in hiring and onboarding.
[00:10:08.06 - 00:10:12.05] And everything was organized, misorganized, everything was poorly
[00:10:12.05 - 00:10:19.00] organized. And I just thought, no, there has to be a better way. It just has to be
[00:10:19.00 - 00:10:21.02] and I was determined to find it.
[00:10:21.02 - 00:10:24.00] So where did you start? So you started Menlo
[00:10:24.00 - 00:10:34.06] Innovations in 2001, I think? Yes. And what were the first foundation pillars of joy?
[00:10:34.06 - 00:10:38.14] Yeah, to understand Menlo, you have to understand what happened just before
[00:10:38.14 - 00:10:46.14] Menlo. Because there was this long pursuit. And then I was handed an
[00:10:46.14 - 00:10:53.03] opportunity to really have as much control as a human can have of the
[00:10:53.03 - 00:10:58.20] things that were important. This was back when I was a director at a company called
[00:10:58.20 - 00:11:04.13] Interface Systems here in Ann Arbor, Michigan. And my boss, Bob Nero had been
[00:11:04.13 - 00:11:11.04] sort of guiding me towards an executive position with the company. And one day, he
[00:11:11.04 - 00:11:17.17] brought me into his office and said, Rich, I want to promote you to VP. And I said,
[00:11:17.17 - 00:11:24.17] No, not interested. I am not interested in the uncapped personal commitment that will
[00:11:24.17 - 00:11:31.07] be required to be an executive inside of a troubled public company. Oh, he didn't
[00:11:31.07 - 00:11:40.10] want to hear that. He was very upset with me. And so I left his office that day.
[00:11:40.10 - 00:11:47.04] Upset. He was upset. I went home that night. And I contemplated what just
[00:11:47.04 - 00:11:52.10] happened that afternoon when I told my boss, No, I don't want the promotion. You
[00:11:52.10 - 00:11:56.14] know, because there was a lot of, I remember him telling me at the time, he
[00:11:56.14 - 00:12:00.22] says, Rich, you have three daughters. Your life is about to get very
[00:12:00.22 - 00:12:04.07] expensive. I'm going to help with that. We're going to get you into this executive
[00:12:04.07 - 00:12:09.16] position. It was an interesting ploy on his part. But there was something far more
[00:12:09.16 - 00:12:16.14] important than money to me at risk there. And it was in here. And so I went home
[00:12:16.14 - 00:12:22.19] that night. I thought about my experience as a youth, my dream as a college student,
[00:12:22.22 - 00:12:29.08] the disillusionment I'd gone through over the last 15 years. And I realized I had
[00:12:29.08 - 00:12:36.10] just been handed a grand opportunity to make the dream real. So I went to back to
[00:12:36.10 - 00:12:42.05] Bob Nero, my CEO, the next day. And I said, I will take the job on one
[00:12:42.05 - 00:12:49.22] condition. I need your help. He was intrigued. And he said, What? I said, I
[00:12:49.22 - 00:12:53.01] need your help, because I want to build the best damn software team this town has
[00:12:53.01 - 00:12:58.05] ever seen. And he asked me, he says, Rich, what happened? He says, 12 hours ago, you
[00:12:58.05 - 00:13:03.05] were telling me no. And now you come back with this. And I said, You know, Bob, I've
[00:13:03.05 - 00:13:09.02] had this dream for a long time. This is my opportunity. I don't know exactly what I'm
[00:13:09.02 - 00:13:12.22] going to do. But I'm going to pour everything I can into taking this
[00:13:12.22 - 00:13:19.16] opportunity and turning it into what I want. And within two years, we started to
[00:13:19.16 - 00:13:24.16] reformulate how Interface Systems work, not just my team, but the effect on my
[00:13:24.16 - 00:13:34.07] team started to affect the whole company. By 1999, I had met a guy, James Goble, who
[00:13:34.07 - 00:13:39.14] would be a consultant to me then, now my co founder at Menlo. I'd read a book by a
[00:13:39.14 - 00:13:42.19] gentleman named Kent Beck, who wrote something called Extreme Programming
[00:13:42.19 - 00:13:47.23] Explained that a lot of people in the programming industry know well. And I saw
[00:13:47.23 - 00:13:53.14] a video on an industrial design firm in California called IDEO. They had featured
[00:13:53.14 - 00:14:00.04] them redesigning what does design look like? Because I was confused about design.
[00:14:00.04 - 00:14:04.20] I thought design came from genius designers. But design is really in the
[00:14:04.20 - 00:14:09.01] minds of the people you intend to serve. And our job as designers is to pull out
[00:14:09.01 - 00:14:15.04] what they know, and build it into whatever it is we're designing. And so those, those
[00:14:15.04 - 00:14:19.08] things all happen within a short period of time, reading the book, meeting James,
[00:14:19.08 - 00:14:23.22] seeing the IDEO video and having this platform from which I could, and we made
[00:14:23.22 - 00:14:28.04] dramatic changes quickly. Within six months, we had absolutely transformed
[00:14:28.04 - 00:14:33.16] Interface Systems into something that looks a lot like Menlo does today. And we
[00:14:33.16 - 00:14:38.23] we were running it within six months, it was working, I was back to this word joy,
[00:14:38.23 - 00:14:43.17] I wouldn't have used the word back then. But I could feel it. I could, I was
[00:14:43.17 - 00:14:48.01] walking in every day excited. I loved what we were doing. I loved what we were
[00:14:48.01 - 00:14:55.22] accomplishing. And then in 2001, we had been acquired, based on the work that my
[00:14:55.22 - 00:14:59.17] team had done in transforming the culture of that company. And then the internet
[00:14:59.17 - 00:15:04.16] bubble burst. And all this wonderful work that we had done over the previous two
[00:15:04.16 - 00:15:10.05] years, was literally washed away in an instant. And I went home and I told my
[00:15:10.05 - 00:15:14.23] wife, I'd lost my job. And she looked at me with tears in her eyes. And she said,
[00:15:14.23 - 00:15:21.19] you're unemployed? And I said, No, honey, I'm an entrepreneur now. And she didn't
[00:15:21.19 - 00:15:26.23] exactly know what that meant. But I realized that while I lost everything when
[00:15:26.23 - 00:15:30.16] the internet bubble burst, you know, the job, the title, the paycheck, the options,
[00:15:30.16 - 00:15:36.01] the everything, they couldn't take away what I had learned in those two years. And
[00:15:36.01 - 00:15:40.17] what I had learned would eventually become the basis for Menlo. And we started Menlo
[00:15:40.17 - 00:15:47.14] right on the heels of the dot com bubble burst, and very quickly came up with a
[00:15:47.14 - 00:15:53.16] famous mission statement, that we wanted to end human suffering in the world as it
[00:15:53.16 - 00:15:58.01] relates to technology, not only for the people who are paying for it, and the
[00:15:58.01 - 00:16:02.07] people who ultimately use it, but for the people who are building it. And the word
[00:16:02.07 - 00:16:07.07] we chose to center our culture on was an unusual word in the context of work. We
[00:16:07.07 - 00:16:13.01] picked the word joy, we wanted to return joy to technology. And that became
[00:16:13.01 - 00:16:17.04] the rest of the story, as they say.
[00:16:17.04 - 00:16:19.04] Now I know why you're called the chief
[00:16:19.04 - 00:16:22.23] storyteller, because you are really good with stories.
[00:16:22.23 - 00:16:25.13] So Rich, when you
[00:16:25.13 - 00:16:32.22] transformed the company back at the Interface days, using extreme programming
[00:16:32.22 - 00:16:38.19] and other principles, was there any resistance to the change?
[00:16:38.19 - 00:16:41.04] Yeah. So when I
[00:16:41.04 - 00:16:46.22] first read Kent Beck's book, and it wasn't even a book back then, he hadn't, the book
[00:16:46.22 - 00:16:50.11] came out just a little bit later, but there were wiki pages and all this sort of
[00:16:50.11 - 00:16:54.22] thing. So I was learning about these principles of extreme programming. And I
[00:16:54.22 - 00:16:59.07] was intrigued by a lot of them, automated unit testing frameworks, test driven
[00:16:59.07 - 00:17:04.10] design, iterative development, short cycles, you know, the story carding
[00:17:04.10 - 00:17:11.08] process, all that kind of stuff. But there was this one thing inside of Kent's, you
[00:17:11.08 - 00:17:15.16] know, 14 principles of extreme programming, that at first my brain
[00:17:15.16 - 00:17:21.22] resisted. And it was this idea of paired programming. And I kind of looked at that
[00:17:21.22 - 00:17:27.23] at first, I'm like, huh? Why would I put two programmers on one keyboard and mouse?
[00:17:27.23 - 00:17:32.14] That doesn't make sense. I'd be cutting productivity in half. And then I started
[00:17:32.14 - 00:17:38.23] to realize, personally, what the benefits of that could be. And actually, somewhat
[00:17:38.23 - 00:17:43.20] like Kent did, when he came up with it, I looked back in my own programming career,
[00:17:43.20 - 00:17:49.14] and realized how much better the code was when I had pulled someone up next to me
[00:17:49.14 - 00:17:53.10] and said, hey, Frank, come here, sit down with me. This code has to work the first
[00:17:53.10 - 00:17:58.01] time. Can you just work with me? And we sat together. So I had experienced it. I
[00:17:58.01 - 00:18:01.07] just never gave it a name. And I never thought it should be an instantiated
[00:18:01.07 - 00:18:07.17] practice that you do all the time. But it started to intrigue me. So then I brought
[00:18:07.17 - 00:18:16.05] this, these ideas to my team. And at the time, I had about 14 developers. I was
[00:18:16.05 - 00:18:20.20] still the new kid on the block at Interface Systems. I had only been there
[00:18:20.20 - 00:18:29.13] 16 years at that point. Some of my programmers had been there for 30 years.
[00:18:29.13 - 00:18:35.22] Okay, so this was a seasoned team. And I'm still the new kid on the block at 16 years
[00:18:35.22 - 00:18:41.16] of crazy new ideas. So I brought them together. I'm the VP now. So I can tell
[00:18:41.16 - 00:18:46.13] them what to do if I want to. But I knew that if I was going to make big changes, I
[00:18:46.13 - 00:18:52.19] had to get them to join me. And so I presented these ideas on Kent Beck to
[00:18:52.19 - 00:19:01.05] them. And I asked them what they thought. And at first, all of them just looked down
[00:19:01.05 - 00:19:06.13] at the floor. They didn't even want to make eye contact. They didn't say
[00:19:06.13 - 00:19:10.04] anything. And I said, Guys, I'm really thinking of going in this direction. What
[00:19:10.04 - 00:19:15.01] do you think? Finally, one of my developers raises his hand. I said, Gil,
[00:19:15.01 - 00:19:23.20] tell me what you think. He said, Rich, blood, mayhem, murder. That's what I think.
[00:19:23.20 - 00:19:30.11] He says, do not pull me out my office and put me out in a big open room. Do not make me
[00:19:30.11 - 00:19:37.07] share a computer with another human being. And for goodness sakes, do not make me
[00:19:37.07 - 00:19:45.18] share my code. It's my code. So that was the first reaction. Blood, mayhem, murder.
[00:19:47.10 - 00:19:54.13] Now, after that meeting, two of my guys came up to me, didn't want to speak up at the
[00:19:54.13 - 00:19:57.13] meeting because they could feel the resistance from everybody else. And they
[00:19:57.13 - 00:20:04.20] said, We want to try it. We want to run the experiment. So I authorized a little
[00:20:04.20 - 00:20:10.22] three week experiment where Bob and Claire paired together and did all the practice
[00:20:10.22 - 00:20:15.22] of extreme programming for three weeks, just to see what it would be like. And
[00:20:15.22 - 00:20:20.16] Claire stopped me about two weeks into the experiment out in the parking lot. We're
[00:20:20.16 - 00:20:27.13] walking in the building. And he asked me a really funny question. He said, Rich, are
[00:20:27.13 - 00:20:33.04] you still going to pay me to work here? I said, What do you mean? He said, I got to
[00:20:33.04 - 00:20:36.10] tell you, this new way of working feels like so much fun. It doesn't feel like
[00:20:36.10 - 00:20:41.04] work anymore. I'm not sure you should pay me. So this was the reactions I was
[00:20:41.04 - 00:20:45.08] getting at the beginning. Blood, mayhem, murder at one end of the spectrum. I will
[00:20:45.08 - 00:20:49.22] work for you for free at the other end of the spectrum. I was not getting lukewarm
[00:20:49.22 - 00:20:59.22] responses. And so we went through a series of ongoing experiments to continue to try
[00:20:59.22 - 00:21:06.04] this. And eventually, magic happened.
[00:21:08.01 - 00:21:17.01] So zooming to Menlo Innovations today, when a visitor comes in, what's typically
[00:21:17.01 - 00:21:22.16] the one or two things that create a wow moment for them?
[00:21:22.16 - 00:21:25.19] Yeah, what's fun for me,
[00:21:25.19 - 00:21:31.10] and I get to do this a lot, is often I will meet the visitors before they
[00:21:31.10 - 00:21:37.04] actually walk in our door. And so I'll walk in with them. The door opens, they
[00:21:37.04 - 00:21:42.08] walk into our space, and I listen. And it happens almost every single time. It's
[00:21:42.08 - 00:21:47.17] amazing. It happens so often, I can just predict it. The first word out of their
[00:21:47.17 - 00:21:50.15] mouth when they walk in is, wow.
[00:21:53.15 - 00:22:03.07] And because they can feel the human energy in the space. You know, and again, we're,
[00:22:03.07 - 00:22:09.10] these days, we are really counterculture. You know, we were counterculture up to the
[00:22:09.10 - 00:22:14.04] pandemic. And then of course, we, like everyone else, had to all go home and work
[00:22:14.04 - 00:22:18.08] from home and all that sort of thing for about 18 months. Now we're all back in the
[00:22:18.08 - 00:22:22.04] office, five days a week. So we're all back in the office and so people are
[00:22:22.04 - 00:22:26.14] shocked by that. They're like, really? Like the whole world's going to work from
[00:22:26.14 - 00:22:30.10] home and you guys are all back in the office. You know, how do you do that? Why
[00:22:30.10 - 00:22:35.02] do you do that? Why, you know, is there resistance to that? And, but you know,
[00:22:35.02 - 00:22:39.19] when they come in and they, they walk into this big open room and they find out that
[00:22:39.19 - 00:22:46.08] my office is a table out in the room with everybody else. There is no corner office
[00:22:46.08 - 00:22:51.14] for the CEO or for my co-founder James. And they can just feel the energy, the
[00:22:51.14 - 00:22:57.22] camaraderie, the laughter, the dogs running around, sometimes the baby in the
[00:22:57.22 - 00:23:03.04] place and that sort of thing. Now they're intrigued. They're like, okay, tell me
[00:23:03.04 - 00:23:07.01] what's going on here. Why do you, you know, what's happening over here? What are
[00:23:07.01 - 00:23:12.08] these visual artifacts about? And so, but the first thing they notice when I, you
[00:23:12.08 - 00:23:16.07] know, I usually have to point it out to them, but when they finally see it for
[00:23:16.07 - 00:23:23.01] what it is, I say, yeah, look how we work. Two people, one computer, one keyboard and
[00:23:23.01 - 00:23:28.01] mouse. And they're like, what?
[00:23:28.01 - 00:23:33.04] So let's say one of your visitors is an entrepreneur and
[00:23:33.04 - 00:23:37.22] they say, Rich, I really love what you've done here. Tell me what is the one or two
[00:23:37.22 - 00:23:44.11] things I can take back at my business and create more joyful work?
[00:23:44.11 - 00:23:46.19] Well, number one,
[00:23:46.19 - 00:23:53.02] what I tell people is, and it is the culture equation piece is you have to be
[00:23:53.02 - 00:23:57.23] intentional about your culture. And so you have to pick your culture's intention. And
[00:23:57.23 - 00:24:04.11] for us, it's joy. And for us, it's the outcomes of that joy. We want to delight
[00:24:04.11 - 00:24:08.07] the people we intend to serve. That's our belief about the purpose of an
[00:24:08.07 - 00:24:14.10] organization is an organization's purpose should be embedded in service to others.
[00:24:14.10 - 00:24:19.17] It should be embedded in serving others with joy and delight to produce delight in
[00:24:19.17 - 00:24:26.22] the people you serve, that your work is so embraced and loved by the people you
[00:24:26.22 - 00:24:31.22] intend to serve that they come back to you and say, thank you. I love what you did
[00:24:31.22 - 00:24:39.10] for us. So at the very least, that's the basic intention driven through our purpose
[00:24:39.10 - 00:24:45.16] and supported by our culture. And then of course, it's easy to say that be
[00:24:45.16 - 00:24:48.19] intentional about your culture. And I'm guessing a lot of people say, yeah, I
[00:24:48.19 - 00:24:53.07] think we're intentional about our culture. And then I would ask them, show me the
[00:24:53.07 - 00:25:00.17] evidence. And I will tell you where we look first is show me your HR practices
[00:25:00.17 - 00:25:06.22] and how do your HR practices align with your cultural intention? How do you
[00:25:06.22 - 00:25:13.20] recruit? How do you interview? How do you select? How do you onboard? How do you
[00:25:13.20 - 00:25:19.01] give feedback? How do you promote? What decisions lead to making a decision
[00:25:19.01 - 00:25:24.16] perhaps to fire someone? How do you handle that conversation? All of those things
[00:25:24.16 - 00:25:29.11] that are traditional in every organization, every organization has to
[00:25:29.11 - 00:25:34.14] work through those things in one way or another. What evidence do you see in those
[00:25:34.14 - 00:25:41.04] practices in your company that align with your cultural intentions? And so you might
[00:25:41.04 - 00:25:45.02] imagine ours look very different than many organizations.
[00:25:45.02 - 00:25:46.11] So how do you hire and how
[00:25:46.11 - 00:25:52.04] do you onboard? These were the two kind of parts in the book, Joy Inc that really
[00:25:52.04 - 00:25:56.23] stood out for me. I found them very refreshing. So tell us more.
[00:25:56.23 - 00:26:01.01] Yeah. So part
[00:26:01.01 - 00:26:07.10] of this is remembering how we work. And so let me describe how we work in a short
[00:26:07.10 - 00:26:11.16] sentence and then back it up into the interview process. So I described that we
[00:26:11.16 - 00:26:15.17] work in pairs, two people, one computer, sharing a keyboard and a mouse,
[00:26:15.17 - 00:26:19.16] collaborating all day long. This isn't like, come help me with my work. This is
[00:26:19.16 - 00:26:24.19] our work done together and it's done all day long, every day. Okay. So that's the
[00:26:24.19 - 00:26:29.01] typical work day for someone who works at Menlo. Every single day is you have a pair
[00:26:29.01 - 00:26:32.07] partner with you. You're sharing a keyboard. It's not come over on my
[00:26:32.07 - 00:26:38.10] computer. This is our shared computer, our shared work together. And then we switch
[00:26:38.10 - 00:26:44.16] those pairs at least every five business days. So it's very explicit. This isn't
[00:26:44.16 - 00:26:49.08] like, oh, I really like Andreas. So, you know, you come over here and work with me.
[00:26:49.08 - 00:26:53.16] No, we're going to get you to work with everybody on the team. Okay. We want, we
[00:26:53.16 - 00:26:58.13] believe there's a lot of benefit to that and we can talk about why we believe that.
[00:26:58.19 - 00:27:03.14] So now how would you find people who want to work like that if they've never worked
[00:27:03.14 - 00:27:07.19] like that before? Because most people do not work like that. It's a very unusual
[00:27:07.19 - 00:27:13.08] work environment. So we reinvented the interview practice. We bring people in, in
[00:27:13.08 - 00:27:20.01] groups. We call it an extreme interview. Now that's not because it's intense or
[00:27:20.01 - 00:27:26.16] something. It's named after extreme programming. And, and obviously there's
[00:27:26.16 - 00:27:30.14] this element of extreme programming that is pairing. And so we call it an extreme
[00:27:30.14 - 00:27:36.19] interview. We'll bring in 30 to 40 people at a time and we pair them during the
[00:27:36.19 - 00:27:44.16] interview with another candidate. Not pair them with a Menlonian. We pair off the
[00:27:44.16 - 00:27:48.20] candidates, one with another, and then we give them the weirdest instructions you
[00:27:48.20 - 00:27:53.23] will ever get in a job interview. You know, Andreas, if you're paired with, you
[00:27:53.23 - 00:27:59.17] know, Susan, we say your job in this interview through the practice you're
[00:27:59.17 - 00:28:05.17] going to do for the next 20 minutes is to help her get a second interview. Help your
[00:28:05.17 - 00:28:10.10] pair partner succeed. What we're going to evaluate you on is how do you support
[00:28:10.10 - 00:28:14.17] another human being? Why would that be important to us? Because that's the way we
[00:28:14.17 - 00:28:19.14] work every single day. So we are communicating, intentionally communicating
[00:28:19.14 - 00:28:25.23] our deepest held cultural value from the moment of first contact. Now, a lot of
[00:28:25.23 - 00:28:31.17] people think we are hiring for culture fit. And I used to believe that. I no
[00:28:31.17 - 00:28:36.22] longer believe that because the variety of people we get here, there is no way this
[00:28:36.22 - 00:28:42.17] is a culture fit test. What it is, and this is what I've discovered over time, is
[00:28:42.17 - 00:28:48.04] we are teaching our culture from the moment of first contact. We are sharing
[00:28:48.04 - 00:28:55.02] with you what are our expectations for you if you were to come to work here. And if
[00:28:55.02 - 00:29:00.16] we can share those expectations clearly, succinctly, and logically, and, you know,
[00:29:00.16 - 00:29:09.14] not complicated, it's amazing how human beings can adapt if they're presented with
[00:29:09.14 - 00:29:15.07] simple, reasonable expectations. And so we pair you for 20 minutes, and then we
[00:29:15.07 - 00:29:19.08] switch the pairs. So now you're not paired with Susan, you're paired with Bill, and
[00:29:19.08 - 00:29:24.04] then you're paired with John. And three pairings, and we send you all home. It
[00:29:24.04 - 00:29:28.14] lasts about two hours. We don't ask you any questions during this interview. We
[00:29:28.14 - 00:29:34.01] are simply observing your behavior. We actually tell you, before we begin this,
[00:29:34.01 - 00:29:39.02] what failure looks like. We tell people, we're not trying to weed you out, we're
[00:29:39.02 - 00:29:44.20] trying to weed you in. We want you to succeed. This isn't a, let's see if we can
[00:29:44.20 - 00:29:48.22] weed out as quickly as possible. It's like, let's see who can adapt the fastest
[00:29:48.22 - 00:29:53.10] to this crazy new environment that we have. And if you don't work out that time,
[00:29:53.10 - 00:29:57.22] because we'll vote right after you leave as to who would bring in for a second
[00:29:57.22 - 00:30:02.19] interview. And that's the only bar we're trying to set in this very first interview
[00:30:02.19 - 00:30:07.10] is, who do we invite back in for a second interview? And the people who come in on a
[00:30:07.10 - 00:30:11.22] second interview come in for a full day. We pay them. They pair in the morning with
[00:30:11.22 - 00:30:16.04] one Menlonian, they pair in the afternoon with another, and they do real work on a
[00:30:16.04 - 00:30:21.04] real client project. And then at the end of that day, we look for three more votes,
[00:30:21.04 - 00:30:26.02] the two people you paired with and you. Because you may say, this is really cool.
[00:30:26.02 - 00:30:31.19] I think this, this is amazing. It's not for me. Okay, that's great. There's lots
[00:30:31.19 - 00:30:36.01] of other companies you can work for. But we want to give you the experience because
[00:30:36.01 - 00:30:41.10] I think a lot of times interview processes feel very one sided. Oh, wouldn't you be
[00:30:41.10 - 00:30:45.16] lucky to work for us if we choose you? You know, like, really? I don't know if that's
[00:30:45.16 - 00:30:50.20] true. You know, I should give you an opportunity to see what does it feel like.
[00:30:50.20 - 00:30:55.13] What does it actually feel like to work here? And if that day works, we all say
[00:30:55.13 - 00:31:00.13] thumbs up again, then you come in for a paid three week trial. If it works for
[00:31:00.13 - 00:31:04.20] your life, if you can get enough time up. But what we're really trying to say is,
[00:31:04.20 - 00:31:10.16] look, this is different. And we better give you the best possible opportunity and
[00:31:10.16 - 00:31:15.20] us to figure out is this going to work between us? Can you adapt quick enough to
[00:31:15.20 - 00:31:21.04] our expectations of supporting other people, of not trying to take strong
[00:31:21.04 - 00:31:25.13] ownership and say, I did this and all that kind of stuff. It's just a different kind
[00:31:25.13 - 00:31:29.13] of environment. So we want to give you the best possible chance for success.
[00:31:29.13 - 00:31:33.16] To the critics that say this might work for a software company, but it won't work for my
[00:31:33.16 - 00:31:35.13] company. What do you say?
[00:31:35.13 - 00:31:38.22] You know, I you might guess that I've spent a lot of time
[00:31:38.22 - 00:31:44.23] looking at other industries and saying, who else pairs people? Oh, my goodness,
[00:31:44.23 - 00:31:50.16] it's there's so many. It's so obvious to us as humans that we just take it for
[00:31:50.16 - 00:31:56.16] granted. For example, when's the when's the last time you got on a commercial
[00:31:56.16 - 00:32:00.19] airliner and felt comfortable when the pilot said, oh, my copilot called in sick
[00:32:00.19 - 00:32:07.22] today. I got this. I'm going to do it all by myself. It's like so pilots, emergency,
[00:32:07.22 - 00:32:13.08] you know, police and firefighters and paramedics, health care professionals,
[00:32:13.08 - 00:32:17.23] often a surgeon and a parasurgeon or nurse and a paramedic, anesthesiologists and a
[00:32:17.23 - 00:32:23.19] paranesthesiologist. What I like to say is when there's lives at risk, and there is
[00:32:23.19 - 00:32:31.17] with software now, we pair people, parents of teenagers. You know, I realize some
[00:32:31.17 - 00:32:36.16] people have raised teenagers without a spouse that that works, but I'm guessing
[00:32:36.16 - 00:32:41.11] there are moments in every parent's life that, boy, I really need a partner right
[00:32:41.11 - 00:32:47.23] now to make sure my kids stay safe. So golfers and caddies, you know, is a great
[00:32:47.23 - 00:32:55.01] example of pairing as well. So there's lots of examples. And we don't just pair
[00:32:55.01 - 00:33:00.13] programmers. Pretty much everybody in the company pairs. And so we've just found
[00:33:00.13 - 00:33:09.04] such great benefits from pairing in terms of speed to a quality solution, you know,
[00:33:09.04 - 00:33:14.22] on boarding and growing people and transferring skills and making sure we
[00:33:14.22 - 00:33:19.02] don't have these towers of knowledge that define most software teams. All those kind
[00:33:19.02 - 00:33:23.04] of things are just tremendous side benefits we get from pairing.
[00:33:23.04 - 00:33:31.23] What were some of the mistakes or experiments or failed experiments that you made on the way?
[00:33:31.23 - 00:33:35.17] Yeah, I mean, there's so many along the way, because we just keep trying
[00:33:35.17 - 00:33:40.14] stuff, and we never get too wound up about, you know, what didn't work and why
[00:33:40.14 - 00:33:48.16] did we try that. But, you know, in the early days, we weren't, we kind of let
[00:33:48.16 - 00:33:53.17] everybody sort of self-select their pairs. And just, you just figure out who you want
[00:33:53.17 - 00:33:57.19] to pair with. And we found out right away, of course, it was, it was like those
[00:33:57.19 - 00:34:03.07] difficult, youthful experiments on the playground when, you know, you were, you
[00:34:03.07 - 00:34:07.07] were playing some sport, and you had to pick your teams. And then there was always
[00:34:07.07 - 00:34:14.22] the kid left at the end. It felt like, oh, nobody wants me on their team. And so, you
[00:34:14.22 - 00:34:20.01] know, we just started assigning the pairs. And we thought, oh, that we'll just do
[00:34:20.01 - 00:34:23.14] that for a while, then everybody will get used to pairing with everybody else. And
[00:34:23.14 - 00:34:27.01] then we won't have to do it anymore. And the team actually came to us and said,
[00:34:27.01 - 00:34:32.19] don't ever stop assigning the pairs. That removes so much social anxiety. And quite
[00:34:32.19 - 00:34:37.10] frankly, there's people I probably wouldn't have naturally paired with, on my
[00:34:37.10 - 00:34:41.01] own. But because we're forcing that equation, they find out, oh, they're not
[00:34:41.01 - 00:34:44.06] as bad as I thought they were going to be, and all that kind of stuff.
[00:34:44.06 - 00:34:47.13] Yeah, there's, I mean, there's lots of stuff, we're always trying, some of it
[00:34:47.13 - 00:34:53.18] works, some of it doesn't. One of our famous phrases here is let's run the
[00:34:53.18 - 00:34:59.15] experiment. So what you see here is, we like to take action versus take a meeting.
[00:34:59.15 - 00:35:04.03] If somebody has an idea, we're like, well, let's try it and see if it works. And if
[00:35:04.03 - 00:35:10.00] it does, great, keep going. If it doesn't, either adjust it or forget it.
[00:35:10.00 - 00:35:14.11] Are you intentional about hiring for diverse, you know,
[00:35:17.07 - 00:35:23.22] ethnic origin or anything else, or you just let it grow organically?
[00:35:23.22 - 00:35:31.07] What's wonderful about our interviewing process is it scales so easily. And the reason I
[00:35:31.07 - 00:35:36.11] bring that up in the context of this question is, I think the mistakes I used
[00:35:36.11 - 00:35:41.19] to make as a hiring manager, go right to the heart of where I think diversity and
[00:35:41.19 - 00:35:46.17] inclusion starts to break down. If I looked at a resume when I was an
[00:35:46.17 - 00:35:53.08] executive, you know, if I was hiring for a position, I know I would look and say, oh,
[00:35:53.08 - 00:35:57.20] look, they went to the University of Michigan, just like me. Oh, they took the
[00:35:57.20 - 00:36:03.22] same classes from the same professors that I did. Oh, you know, I can see their grade
[00:36:03.22 - 00:36:08.17] point average is a lot like mine, or they grew up around where I did. They must be a
[00:36:08.17 - 00:36:13.10] lot like me. And I did really well, you know, shouldn't I hire them? And you're
[00:36:13.10 - 00:36:19.22] going to end up with very low diversity in that situation. Here, we don't even look
[00:36:19.22 - 00:36:24.05] at the people who are, so when we're pairing during that extreme interview, I
[00:36:24.05 - 00:36:28.04] told you about where you put one candidate with another, there's a Menlonian sitting
[00:36:28.04 - 00:36:33.08] on the other side, just taking notes about what they see. The people taking notes do
[00:36:33.08 - 00:36:38.01] not have access to the resumes of the people sitting across from them. So
[00:36:38.01 - 00:36:44.11] they're just looking at the humans. And I think the first step towards diversity is
[00:36:44.11 - 00:36:48.15] don't look at eight and a half by 11 sheets of paper, look at the human beings.
[00:36:49.11 - 00:36:54.16] And when the, when the judgment of second interview is, did you make your peer
[00:36:54.16 - 00:37:00.20] partner look good? Did you support another human being? The cognitive diversity that
[00:37:00.20 - 00:37:06.13] results from this is very high. Because this is where I started to realize,
[00:37:06.13 - 00:37:09.22] because a lot of people said, oh, you're hiring for culture fit, you must have all
[00:37:09.22 - 00:37:14.11] the extroverted programmers on planet Earth working for you. Because who else
[00:37:14.11 - 00:37:18.01] would like to work in an environment like this, but extroverts. And then I kept
[00:37:18.01 - 00:37:23.13] looking, I'm like, almost none of us are extroverts. I mean, the level of deep
[00:37:23.13 - 00:37:28.19] introversion here at Menlo is very high, because that's the industry we're in. And
[00:37:28.19 - 00:37:32.01] one of the things I discovered about extrovert versus introvert, it's not that
[00:37:32.01 - 00:37:38.04] introverts don't like to work with other humans, they just prefer fewer, safer,
[00:37:38.04 - 00:37:44.07] deeper relationships. And they get that. And so I started looking at the people
[00:37:44.07 - 00:37:48.02] were collecting, and they're all so different, different backgrounds,
[00:37:48.02 - 00:37:53.05] different amount of education, different kinds of experience. In one of the moments
[00:37:53.05 - 00:37:59.07] for me, that was kind of mind blowing, actually was, there was a gentleman that
[00:37:59.07 - 00:38:04.07] he's still here, Scott. And, you know, people were asking us about our interview.
[00:38:04.07 - 00:38:08.07] And Scott has an interesting, I actually tell Scott's story, and I think it's Chief
[00:38:08.07 - 00:38:12.19] Joy Officer, about his interview process, because it was kind of laborious. He tried
[00:38:12.19 - 00:38:16.14] it a couple of times, we gave him some extra chances, that sort of thing. And
[00:38:16.14 - 00:38:21.10] eventually he got in. But he didn't, he didn't align at first. And then he learned
[00:38:21.10 - 00:38:27.05] to adapt. And that adaptation has made him into just a terrific leader here. But, you
[00:38:27.05 - 00:38:30.07] know, people were asking me questions like you're asking me, and I said, Hey, let's
[00:38:30.07 - 00:38:34.05] go talk to Scott about his experiences coming here. So we worked through all the
[00:38:34.05 - 00:38:36.17] things that Scott went through, and eventually make it through our interview
[00:38:36.17 - 00:38:43.13] process. And then I, I asked Scott, I said, Well, what was it that drew you to
[00:38:43.13 - 00:38:48.02] Menlo? Because clearly you weren't, you know, you weren't succeeding in our
[00:38:48.02 - 00:38:51.13] interview process, but you kept trying, you kept wanting to be here. I said, What
[00:38:51.13 - 00:38:56.20] was it about it that about us that had you want to be here? He smiled, he
[00:38:56.20 - 00:39:04.19] says, You guys don't look at resumes. And I'm like, Oh, tell me more, you know,
[00:39:04.19 - 00:39:08.19] like, what did I just learn? You know, what did your resume say? And he said,
[00:39:08.19 - 00:39:14.10] Well, if you'd looked at my resume, you would have seen that the only education I
[00:39:14.10 - 00:39:19.02] had, formal education, is I got a welding certificate.
[00:39:21.04 - 00:39:27.01] He has no formal education in computer science. He says that was a hobby. He says
[00:39:27.01 - 00:39:35.07] most people wouldn't hire me. You guys would. He says that. And so I think we end
[00:39:35.07 - 00:39:42.01] up getting a tremendous diversity here. That is the truest kind of diversity,
[00:39:42.01 - 00:39:46.19] which is the cognitive diversity you need for creativity.
[00:39:46.19 - 00:39:48.02] So I'm hearing you're,
[00:39:48.02 - 00:39:54.16] you're hiding everything that can introduce inadvertent bias into the hiring process.
[00:39:54.16 - 00:39:58.16] Well, you can't hide what people look like. You can't hide the color of
[00:39:58.16 - 00:40:04.04] their skin. You can probably tell I look a little older than others. Yeah.
[00:40:04.21 - 00:40:11.09] But, but I also think the other, the other thing we do is the team builds the team.
[00:40:11.19 - 00:40:15.14] And what's interesting about that is when we get together after that extreme
[00:40:15.14 - 00:40:20.01] interview, it's a big session. You know, if there were 40 people that came in
[00:40:20.01 - 00:40:25.10] interview, there's 20 of us together talking through what we saw. If you had
[00:40:25.10 - 00:40:30.23] somebody who was like, Oh, I don't really like people, like exposing that in front
[00:40:30.23 - 00:40:36.23] of 20 of your peers would be, be a big risk, right? And so what do you do? You
[00:40:36.23 - 00:40:41.22] end up talking about the behaviors you saw, you end up talking about the, you
[00:40:41.22 - 00:40:47.16] know, what you saw happen. It's really hard to bias yourself. And, and, you know,
[00:40:47.16 - 00:40:51.14] people will challenge, they'll say, you know, yeah, okay. They struggled. You
[00:40:51.14 - 00:40:55.13] think they were nervous? I was nervous when I went through that. Do you think
[00:40:55.13 - 00:41:00.19] that they might've been nervous? Or we'll look at it and say, okay, they didn't do
[00:41:00.19 - 00:41:05.01] well in the first pairing. Did they get better at pairing two? Did they get better
[00:41:05.01 - 00:41:09.07] at pairing three? Were they already showing signs of adaptation? And that
[00:41:09.07 - 00:41:13.14] becomes the nature of the conversation as opposed to, well, where did they get their
[00:41:13.14 - 00:41:19.02] degree from, that sort of thing. So, you know, I mean, we're humans, we're going to
[00:41:19.02 - 00:41:27.16] have normal biases about things. But I think, you know, from my own
[00:41:27.16 - 00:41:34.04] experience, I know this is so different from anything I used to do. And it's so
[00:41:34.04 - 00:41:37.10] much better in terms of the resulting team.
[00:41:37.10 - 00:41:39.04] And I don't know if modern software
[00:41:39.04 - 00:41:44.04] companies are any more thoughtful about culture than they were 10 and 20 years
[00:41:44.04 - 00:41:49.04] ago. I haven't seen that. I just, you know, the stacks, the technology stacks
[00:41:49.04 - 00:41:56.02] and the computers and the tools evolve. But culture hasn't maybe by, you know, we
[00:41:56.02 - 00:42:02.04] don't have enough role models that are spreading the word.
[00:42:02.04 - 00:42:03.10] You know, and I think,
[00:42:03.10 - 00:42:07.08] you know, for me, that's one of the reasons that motivated me to write the
[00:42:07.08 - 00:42:12.16] book and motivates us to open our doors for tours. I mean, we could just keep
[00:42:12.16 - 00:42:17.07] everything a secret and not tell anybody about what we're doing and keep it all to
[00:42:17.07 - 00:42:21.07] ourselves. But when we say we want to end human suffering in the world, as it
[00:42:21.07 - 00:42:28.06] relates to technology, we can't do it by ourselves. So while we don't ever believe,
[00:42:28.16 - 00:42:35.04] and would never say to anyone, we have found the one true way of working. We are
[00:42:35.04 - 00:42:40.13] a living, breathing example that people can come in and inspect and look at and
[00:42:40.13 - 00:42:45.04] ask questions about, and then decide for themselves, do they see something here
[00:42:45.04 - 00:42:51.13] that they can bring back to their environment? And so there's lots of
[00:42:51.13 - 00:42:56.22] opportunities. That's why people come here. Because if they were like me, you
[00:42:56.22 - 00:43:00.16] know, I didn't have a memo to go look at when I was on my search journey. So it
[00:43:00.16 - 00:43:05.01] took a long time. But I think every once in a while, when somebody's reading a book
[00:43:05.01 - 00:43:08.19] about anything and gets an inspirational thought in their head, they think to
[00:43:08.19 - 00:43:14.02] themselves, man, wouldn't it be cool if there was an example I could go visit
[00:43:14.02 - 00:43:19.04] right now. And that's what we've become for a lot of people.
[00:43:19.04 - 00:43:22.02] What keeps you
[00:43:22.02 - 00:43:30.16] passionate? And what still drives you to be at the helm of Menlo Innovations after
[00:43:30.16 - 00:43:33.10] 23 or so years?
[00:43:33.10 - 00:43:41.19] 23 years. Yeah. You know, I have achieved something that many don't
[00:43:41.19 - 00:43:47.22] ever get to achieve. I got to the place I wanted to be. And I know that's a
[00:43:47.22 - 00:43:57.04] blessing. I know that is rare. And I am very grateful for where I've ended up in
[00:43:57.04 - 00:44:04.01] my life, in my work life, in the translation of being happier at work and
[00:44:04.01 - 00:44:09.08] what that makes me as a father, as a husband, as a grandfather in the world.
[00:44:09.08 - 00:44:16.11] And so I will tell you, when I walk into Menlo every day, and feel that energy that
[00:44:16.11 - 00:44:20.13] causes our visitors say wow, there's a wow that happens inside of me every single
[00:44:20.13 - 00:44:29.10] day. I sit right out in the room with the team. I literally have right next to me, I
[00:44:29.10 - 00:44:34.08] mean, our tables are right next to one another. Two programmers working on one of
[00:44:34.08 - 00:44:38.16] our big projects sitting right next to me. I get to hear their, overhear their
[00:44:38.16 - 00:44:46.22] interactions. You know, to me, it's just, it's joy. I don't know if there are any
[00:44:46.22 - 00:44:47.12] other words.
[00:44:47.12 - 00:44:49.02] There's no better words.
[00:44:49.02 - 00:44:49.16] Yeah.
[00:44:50.18 - 00:44:55.03] Rich, where can people find out more about Menlo Innovations?
[00:44:55.03 - 00:44:56.06] Yeah, obviously our
[00:44:56.06 - 00:45:02.17] website. And we have free public tours, virtual tours, once a month, or twice a
[00:45:02.17 - 00:45:07.11] month, I think. So you can just, you know, click on a link and sign up for a free
[00:45:07.11 - 00:45:12.14] virtual tour of now the real Menlo. We started doing virtual tours in the
[00:45:12.14 - 00:45:17.14] pandemic. And then we realized, why would we stop doing that? We learned how to
[00:45:17.14 - 00:45:23.12] virtualize our tours. So you can do, back then it was virtual tours of the virtual
[00:45:23.12 - 00:45:27.20] Menlo. Now it's virtual tours of the real Menlo. Obviously, if you're anywhere near
[00:45:27.20 - 00:45:32.06] Ann Arbor, Michigan, and willing to, you know, if it takes getting on an airplane,
[00:45:32.06 - 00:45:37.16] a lot of people still do this. We also have tours that you can come to in person.
[00:45:38.05 - 00:45:42.03] And so I would encourage that, you know, just the free public tours here, wherever
[00:45:42.03 - 00:45:46.11] you are, you know, Andreas, you're in Athens, Greece, you can just click on a
[00:45:46.11 - 00:45:49.08] link, and you're here, click on a link in your home, you might have to deal with
[00:45:49.08 - 00:45:53.09] some time zone differences, but that's about it. So we get people from all over
[00:45:53.09 - 00:45:58.17] the world. And since we started doing virtual tours, we've had visitors from 77
[00:45:58.17 - 00:46:04.08] countries and 47 US states. So it's been really successful in that regard.
[00:46:04.17 - 00:46:09.15] Obviously, the books are there, Joy Inc. and Chief Joy Officer to really learn the
[00:46:09.15 - 00:46:14.06] drippy details of the history and the thinking and the philosophies and that
[00:46:14.06 - 00:46:18.23] sort of thing. If you want to, you know, anybody in your podcast can connect with
[00:46:18.23 - 00:46:26.14] me on LinkedIn, and follow me there. I'm happy to expand my network by saying yes
[00:46:26.14 - 00:46:31.14] to your invitations, I would recommend to your audience that they say something
[00:46:31.14 - 00:46:37.05] like, hey, I just saw the Rethink Culture podcast with Andreas, and I really love to
[00:46:37.05 - 00:46:43.20] connect with you. That's more likely than the blind, you know, ones that say
[00:46:43.20 - 00:46:50.14] nothing. But yeah, so lots of ways to connect and get to know us.
[00:46:51.06 - 00:46:51.23] And Rich, if
[00:46:51.23 - 00:46:53.08] you were to whisper to them about their workplace culture, what would you tell
[00:46:53.08 - 00:46:57.23] you were to whisper to them about their workplace culture, what would you tell
[00:46:57.23 - 00:47:00.00] them? What would they have to rethink?
[00:47:01.14 - 00:47:10.18] You know, I would say, look inside first. For me, this journey was a journey of self
[00:47:10.18 - 00:47:17.07] discovery. You know, I had those youthful experiences, I had a dream. And then I got
[00:47:17.07 - 00:47:21.15] on to reality of building a life, buying a home, having a family, all the
[00:47:21.15 - 00:47:27.09] responsibilities of life and work just became work, and it became a drudgery, and
[00:47:27.09 - 00:47:34.06] it became tiring, and it became uninspiring, and de-energizing, and all
[00:47:34.06 - 00:47:41.03] that sort of thing. And I think, you know, as the famous quote is, you know, and, you
[00:47:41.03 - 00:47:44.21] know, most people lead lives of quiet desperation and go to their graves with
[00:47:44.21 - 00:47:50.00] their heart still, the song in their heart left unsung, I got to sing the song
[00:47:50.00 - 00:47:57.16] that was in my heart. Look inside first. No journey like I'm on can begin unless it
[00:47:57.16 - 00:48:04.06] is first a journey of self discovery. And I had to learn what I really wanted from
[00:48:04.06 - 00:48:11.00] work, what I really wanted. And then I could begin to have asked others to join me.
[00:48:11.00 - 00:48:16.11] Rich, I could think no better way to end the podcast than with these words.
[00:48:17.10 - 00:48:23.03] You're incredibly inspiring to me. And I hope to many more.
[00:48:23.03 - 00:48:24.00] Thank you.
[00:48:24.03 - 00:48:24.17] The virtue
[00:48:24.17 - 00:48:30.17] of pursuing one's true calling, and our true calling should be to make meaning of
[00:48:30.17 - 00:48:35.05] our lives, including our work lives, pursuing what we love, what gives us
[00:48:35.05 - 00:48:41.17] energy, and especially what gives energy to the people around us. And so with that,
[00:48:41.17 - 00:48:49.05] I'd like to thank you again, to thank everyone who stayed until the end to this
[00:48:49.05 - 00:48:54.11] episode. Thank you for being generous for your time, Rich, and thank you for the
[00:48:54.11 - 00:48:59.06] audience for being generous with your time. If you like the show, you can
[00:48:59.06 - 00:49:03.20] support us by telling your friends, you can leave a comment in your podcast app,
[00:49:03.23 - 00:49:11.14] you can email me personally at andreas { rethinkculture.co. And you can also watch
[00:49:11.14 - 00:49:15.23] this episode. If you just listen to it, you can go to YouTube and go to the
[00:49:15.23 - 00:49:23.20] channel at rethink culture { rethink culture, and just watch. And as I
[00:49:23.20 - 00:49:29.15] like to say, keep on leading and creating intentional,
[00:49:29.15 - 00:49:33.23] happier workplace cultures for you and those around you. Thank you.