Rethink Culture

[00:00:07 – 00:01:23] Andreas:
Good morning, good afternoon, and good evening. Welcome to another episode of Rethink Culture, the podcast that shines a spotlight on leaders of businesses that put people first. My name is Andreas Konstantinou. I'm a micromanager turned conscious leader, who developed a passion for workplace culture. At Rethink Culture, we help companies build a high-performance culture by finding what stops your people and teams from doing their best work. Today, I have the pleasure of welcoming Reggy Degen, who is founder of Q7Leader. He's author of the People Model Canvas book. He's a human resources professor at Solvay Business School in Brussels. He has 20 years of international HR, 20 years of faculty experience at Solvay School in Brussels. He has 12 years of entrepreneurship experience in HR tech. As I was talking to him earlier, he says, "I love being over 60 and regrets that maybe he won't be around in the long-term to see where AI really takes us." Reggie, very welcome to the Rethink Culture podcast.

[00:01:24 – 00:01:25] Reggy:
Thank you Andreas.

[00:01:26 – 00:02:08] Andreas:
We had a talk recently where you were telling me all about what Q7Leader is. You are a rare academic and entrepreneur. It's hard to find these two qualities in a person. You've come up with a framework that helps HR people really solve some fundamental challenges. But before we get to all that, tell us a little bit about Reggy and how you found yourself in the world of HR and culture.

[00:02:09 – 00:03:17] Reggy:
I started my career as a lawyer in merges & acquisitions in a large international law firm. My first contact with the business was as a young lawyer. I was meeting my customers who were the managers. I found them very interesting and very inspiring. Because it was a very large law firm, Allen & Overy is a great international law firm. I had great customers, so I was meeting great people. Then I was meeting the employees of those companies, on the M&A, on the transformation restructuring. Had to meet the trade unions, had to meet the employees. The feedback I was receiving from those guys about the managers I knew that I thought were great was absolutely appalling. As a young man, I was surprised to discover the dichotomy between great people that I thought managers on one side, and then the people being very disappointed about how they were going. That actually is all my career. Because from there, I always was intrigued, how can we bring these two perspectives together? That's what brought me to HR.

[00:03:18 – 00:03:24] Andreas:
What led you to make the transition from an HR professional to an entrepreneur?

[00:03:25 – 00:05:16] Reggy:
I did two IPOs in my career. I worked globally, so I had a huge amount of exposure to every continent in the world. I felt there was something that I was told that was not right. That is that people are different, depending on where you take them in the Middle East, in the US. That's not my take. I've been in China, I've been in Australia, in all big continents, did some HR there. I can tell you, we are all the same. Every human being is the same around the world. There may be some cultural differences, which are not the ones I'm talking about. I'm talking about what people need to know, what they have to do, what people need to receive as feedback, what people need to get as support, what people need to do to be recognized. That you’re in China, in Australia, in South America, or in the US or in Europe, there are the same needs. I've been working on meating players like big theoretical or technical platforms or authors, and researching that at university, dreaming that there was a way to give to everybody in the world a fundamental starting point for getting the basics right that I refer to. That's one day as I did those two IPOs, didn't earn enough money to stop working, but could take risk, and decided that I wanted to create what I had missed as a senior HR for organizations, and from there, offering it to customers, which is where we are 12 years there.

[00:05:17 – 00:05:33] Andreas:
So we had a chat just before pressing record, and you were saying in businesses, especially HR, we're not helping managers become better managers. So tell us more.

[00:05:33 – 00:06:53] Reggy:
We're falling short. As I said, I'm always surprised that nobody seems to be worried that we're investing since 70, 80 years, huge amounts of money in training and development, leadership courses, all you name it. And despite that, we only have today, 2024, 23% engaged employees around the world, 11% if you go to Europe. So such a big investment, so many podcasts, so many coaching, so many courses of all sorts, books, and we still don't manage to get it done. So either managers are stupid, or they do it on purpose, or we don't give them what they need. And that's my take. We in HR think that we do our job when we train managers on the theoretical side. In fact, we need to reconsider our support. We need to give them more content than just a theory, not just telling them how to get feedback, but on what to give feedback. And this is the kind of thinking that has led me to creating the People Model Canvas and the company that I created 10 years ago.

[00:06:54 – 00:08:19] Andreas:
So I bought the People Model Canvas book recently, and I thought it was an extremely detailed and thoughtful framework for helping HR managers with everything they need to know on how to set up a person for success, what competences they need to have, what conditions they need-- what conditions a person needs to evolve from level to level, how to think about their performance, how to think about their skills development, all in a framework that makes sense across industries, across competencies, and generally solves a lot of questions every HR professional has to find from day one. So basically, stops a lot of people from reinventing the wheel because they don't have to reinvent the wheel. So in my words, you've codified a lot of the grant work, a lot of the manual work that HR managers had to do before, but now it's all available for them in a way that scales across industries and across competencies and across skill levels.

[00:08:20 – 00:08:51] Reggy:
And it's open source. It's open source, so it's in the public domain. So we actually-- we've put it in the public domain because it's the result of 15 years research. And the idea is actually it would allow-- it's about helping managers becoming better managers, about helping HR, becoming better HR for their managers. And we created the Q7Leader company because we created the software to industrialize all that. But the content and methodology is open source.

[00:08:52 – 00:08:53] Andreas:
And what are the seven levels?

[00:08:54 – 00:10:39] Reggy:
So the Q7, yeah. So there are two different stories about seven. The holy number seven. Seven is in our environment is first-- there are seven ingredients that every single HR system must hold. Integrated should be a fully integrated puzzle. A roles and expectations framework so that people can easily determine at what level of expectation of complexity I'm looking for you to do in your job. And this is another seven. There are seven different profiles. That's one. So the roles and expectations, that's one dimension. The second dimension is performance It's a critical reference. So you must have a scale to measure and engage on performance. Competence is the third dimension. Potential and aspirations is the fourth dimension. Vision and values is the fifth dimension. Put that into the context of fairness. You must have a reward framework that cuts through that so that you can reward the competence performance in a consistent way. So we are at six and seven is resource planning. All of what I said, you have to make sure that you do have a guide so that career plans, succession plans, expectation for competency requirements for the future, all of that needs to be also incorporated into your framework.

[00:10:41 – 00:10:45] Andreas:
And what are some of the aha moments you've seen from people using this?

[00:10:48 – 00:12:25] Reggy:
Well, I guess by far there was one aha moment. Managers, when they talk to HR, they think job classification. And whatever you come up with, when there is a number in terms of grading of some kind, they look at it as a job classification, which is useless for a manager because job classification is a reward technical complex system, hierarchical, making sure that numbers are piling up so that you can put the right salary for the right-- and this is what HR is offering to managers. When we created the-- we call that the general expectation profiles. There are seven profiles of complexity, as I explained earlier, of a support role, which is a very simple role, to a strategy role, which is a very sophisticated role, both in terms of complexity and impact over time. So strategy role will impact the time on the long run, and it's very complex. Support role is actually a short-term impact and a simple role. The story here is when people understand that what we are coming up with is not a job classification, but a management framework which helps them determine clarity in what I'm expecting from you on general expectations, not everything super sophisticated and very clever, just general expectations. You can see that they suddenly see, wow, you mean that I can explain in a very simple way to an employee of whatever level 15 to 18 general expectations at the heart of everything? And the answer being yes is yes, that makes a difference.

[00:12:25 – 00:12:35] Andreas:
When it comes to the 12 years that it took you to build this, what were some of the turning points or the lessons in that journey?

[00:12:36 – 00:13:57] Reggy:
The problem of HR is that we are not engineers, and we should be. And the turning point is that it took me probably six or seven years to understand that I had-- I teach in an engineering school. It's a business school, and all of those guys are engineers. And I had to sort of shift my mind into telling a story that would speak to an HR population, which thinks that HR is just about people. And that's the mistake. HR is not just about people. HR is about people and performance. So you have to, of course, think about people, but putting it into a context of driving performance. And it took me a long period before I could find a story that would not make HR run away because I was talking performance. I was speaking with data. And I was trying to make sure that it's not about putting people into boxes. It's about putting the subjectivity of the players, like managers, into boxes when they talk about people. It's about showing them that you want to make sure you objectivize what you say, and not just be another person with an opinion.

[00:13:59 – 00:14:03] Andreas:
So how do you explain to HR people today why they should use the Canvas?

[00:14:03 – 00:16:10] Reggy:
I make them take a test. So I make them-- I make them-- it takes seven minutes. And I tell them, OK, I don't know the team member you're thinking of. But I want to help that team member become a better person. For that, two options. The first option, you talk to me about the team member. And it's going to take half an hour, maybe an hour, before you think you have covered all the dimensions that you need. Alternatively, I'm going to give you a very simple approach, a framework, seven questions that you will give me answers to. The questions is not a yes or a no. It's a set of definitions to choose a definition from each question that you believe best fits the characteristic of that team member, combine them into the seven minutes exercise. And from there, I'm going to start being able to tell you, if I was you, this is what I would do for that team member. If you now add another 12 to 18 questions, which are questions specific on meta-competences around problem solving, all the things we are interested in-- problem solving, interaction with others, project management, coaching, and the kind of things we're looking into when we talk about people. Another 12 questions to 18 questions. And I'm giving you an absolutely mind-blowing output, particularly now enhanced by AI. Because with the general input that you've given me, plus the specific you deep dive one level down, takes another six or seven minutes, I literally can give you, for that team member, these are the three objectives you should set her. And these are the three areas of development, or development action plans you could give. And today, the AI-- we are at the very beginning of AI. But from what we have done until now, I'm often saying to the team when I see the results, I've been 30 years in business. I don't think I would have given a better advice than what AI has given based on the data that you've given me. Does that answer your question?

[00:16:11 – 00:16:16] Andreas:
It does. What was a leadership mistake you learned a lot from? Yeah.

[00:16:16 – 00:18:16] Reggy:
And I can take both sides. Also, the leadership best practice that I learned from, which is actually the two sides of the coin. Ego-system versus eco-system. So let me clarify. The managers, I worked for-- I had a lot of luck, I think, in my career, because I rarely had bad managers. But the ones, even the very good ones that I saw, the ones that I thought were losing a lot of impact, were most of the time, ego-system driven. I am the manager. I am the boss. I own the power. And so I delegate. So when you do that, you're in a top-down approach. You're in an evaluation approach, like a parent child. Those guys, however good they were, systematically got less than the managers that I worked for who were more in an eco-system. In other words, they were actually putting the employee at the center, looking for empowerment, not going for evaluation, but for evolution, thinking about how to make you grow. And I think the best way to describe it-- there is a recent research that actually explains that very well-- it's not performance evaluation, but it's performance enablement. And if you put this perspective as those two sides of a coin, these are two management models that are quite universal. The ones that I actually saw work best, but by far were the collaborative ones, the eco-system ones, the respectful, the servant leader kind of ones, which is more the eco-system. So yeah, I've seen some ego guys doing a very good piece of work, and I could live with them, to be honest, and very well. But the ones I saw that really made the difference were those that are in the eco-system approach.

[00:18:17 – 00:18:42] Andreas:
Can you convince someone about the argument? So it's an intuitive argument, but can you convince someone that an ego-system person can maybe go faster, but they and their team cannot go further? Can you argue in terms of benefits of one over the other?

[00:18:43 – 00:18:50] Reggy:
You mean talking to an ego-system guy and trying to convince him to be more eco-system driven?

[00:18:50 – 00:18:51] Andreas:
Exactly.

[00:18:51 – 00:21:12] Reggy:
So I think the answer is-- intuitive answer, but I suspect the answer is unlikely. Because once you are in one of those drivers, and if you have become a very senior leader, you know how your model works, and it's very difficult to make you shift. But what we can do is two things. If you apply and you explain the theory when managers are young in the in-development and in the learning process, yes, you can influence them very much. And this is what I do with my students. And I can tell you, I meet students now, 5-10 years later, and that is what they remember. They often come to me and say, we really appreciated you explaining that ego against eco, that performance evaluation for performance, competence evolution. So that's when you put it down at the beginning of the journey of a manager, you can very much influence them in that way. And even for the top guys who are very mature, the only thing that I've seen and that works reasonably well doesn't make them change fundamentally, but they can change their habits by putting them like we do at university in a case study situation. In other words, although they are ego-system, I tell them, listen, I'd like you to join our talent review, where we get it together with other managers, try to develop our people, and getting from you your best ideas. Please don't monopolize the whole journey. Try to be a contributor and share your views. And that has worked pretty well, because when they are playing the game of having to contribute and give their views without having to be the decision makers, they reasonably easily move into the eco-system approach. And I've seen some of them improve by becoming more in the listening mode and more respectful, because they realize that by letting the others expressing their views, they would also learn from them, not as they always think, I know best, and you do what I say. So I guess this is as far as I could go with this experience.

[00:21:13 – 00:22:24] Andreas:
Reggie, moving to another topic. Since you are so familiar with the HR perspective, I hear often that HR managers, HR executives feel less important than they should be. Their views matter less to management. They are seen as people that take care of the people problems, but that they're not necessarily consulted when there's a change of strategy or change of anything important to the organization. So in some cases, we see HR as a necessary evil, because there are people and people problems and somebody has to deal with them. That's obviously not the way things should be, because every business is a people-to-people business. People are at the center of everything a business does. What's your view about what should the role of HR, or maybe a better term is human capital, or people and culture, what should their role of that team be?

[00:22:25 – 00:24:16] Reggy:
It's a question I very much like, because I think HR is one of the few functions where there is still no clear comment agreement on what we are supposed to deliver as a mandate. And I don't know whether you've heard, but I've actually come across examples where a guy was called Chief Happiness Officer. A little bit as if HR was about making people happy. I'm not saying it's not good to make people happy, but making people happy is not an objective as such. It's on the way to getting what we're supposed to be doing. What we're supposed to be doing is letting business thrive against the business objectives by doing four things-- identify, attract, develop, and retain talent. That's our job. And I see a lot of HR managers who actually do other things. And I see a lot of very great philosophical training, cultural investments, which actually don't work or don't ensure we've actually covered the four top basic mandates first. So what I'm saying to HR is as long as you cannot demonstrate a measurable value of those four dimensions, you're actually going to lose credits because people won't take you seriously.

[00:24:17 – 00:25:05] Andreas:
Yeah, exactly. And it's hard to actually prove that by helping people deal with their challenges, whether it's personal or team challenges, bring a better version of themselves at work, help the teams function better, that actually drives results. And because that is all not easy to manage and measure, it's therefore less easy to prove to management what the output is. Moving to a different topic, do you see a difference between what we call HR and culture? Is that the same thing? Is that different things in your mind?

[00:25:08 – 00:27:56] Reggy:
Maybe you won't like my answer. But yes, I see this as two elements that you could even argue that can be dissociated. It's not completely true. But to me, HR is about getting all those basics right that I referred to. That's the starting point. And people and culture, or the culture and values, is something that you can start doing once you've had all those basics sorted. I always think that you have to think of HR as a Maslow pyramid. The basic stuff is the HR, like administration. And the more you move up the Maslow pyramid, the more you get into management practices, leadership practices, inspirational leadership practices until you got to know the self-realization, the whole story of the Maslow pyramid. However good and creative you are in vision, values, well-being, happiness, training. If you don't get your basics right, it pours through. So I, of course, believe that it's critical that we have a strong vision and culture and values model. But when HR drives it and is not capable of proving that it's absolutely super strong on its basics, a lot of that effort is being discredited. And that's what I'm saying. As an HR, I remember I never got-- that is me talking from my history-- I never got to the point where I could start feeling that I was legitimate to talk about culture and values. Because I never managed to get the basics right that I needed to. And because I've got this engineering look, because that's my training. Also, although a lawyer, I've been teaching for 20 years in an engineering school, my processes needed to be so uncriticizable that then I could start being a storyteller about it. So that's why I was always happy to let marketing or senior leadership or whatever take the lead on culture and values, because I felt I was not enough legitimate, because I still had so much to do on my basics. The People Model Canvas is really about making sure that a normal HR doesn't miss any of the seven dimensions, that they need to be mastering before they can start talking about vision and values and all this clever stuff that is so, so critical and absolutely needed, of course.

[00:27:57 – 00:29:04] Andreas:
I totally agree, actually. I just wish that traditional HR, although I don't like the term because it involves resources and people are not resources, but let's say human capital or people and culture, I just regret that within the definition of that term, we don't-- we just-- we stop at maybe vision, mission, and values, and maybe even leadership development, but we don't look at trust building. We don't look at healthy conflict. We don't look at aligning incentives and goals. We don't look at creating accountability. There's a lot of elements of a high performance team that are in a big void in between what is the CEO's responsibility and what is HR's responsibility. And if you have a really good manager, they will intuitively understand that gap and take care of it. But that doesn't-- that never happens at scale.

[00:29:05 – 00:29:42] Reggy:
That's exactly it. I guess you just said it. Today, those who do it well do it intuitively because they're so good that they don't need HR to get things sorted because they're so good at what they do, maybe 10%. But the 90% normal people of goodwill, you need to feed them with the basics, the things that they need to do. I mean, when you say-- you were giving some examples of things that you would like, like feedback or healthy conflict.

[00:29:43 – 00:29:43] Andreas:
Yeah.

[00:29:43 – 00:31:31] Reggy:
If I'm giving you the elements in which-- or on which you should hold conversation with the given team member as a starting point, this is what I think of you, Andreas. And I'm not saying that I'm right. I'm saying this is what I'm thinking of you. Because when I hired you-- and you know when I would discuss the role that you and I are thinking about-- I explained to you what were the expectations. And I don't get that. So I'm telling you why I'm not happy. Not that you're not good. Not that you're doing it or whatever. I just tell you my starting point. And we are in conflict because it looks like we don't reconcile the two perspectives. If I didn't give that manager a framework, he has to invent it. Or she has to come up with her own perspective. And I'm saying managers don't have time for that. That's why they don't do a good job. Because they have to reinvent it each time for every single employee in every single company they go into. Now, having been around the world for so many-- you know, business world for so many years, everywhere in the world, the problems that I was coming across in terms of performance, in terms of competence, in terms of potential, they were the same. That you're a Chinese, you have a small or big potential. The American guy has the same. They are two human beings before all. The two of them, they need to have an understanding of what is the ambition for you, whether you're in China or in America. And both those perspectives, managers in China and America have to reinvent it today because we don't provide them with a framework that makes sense to them. And that's the whole point.

[00:31:33 – 00:31:47] Andreas:
Reggy, what do students mostly thank you for? You cited an example earlier, and I was wondering if there's another one. And what do you wish students will one day thank you for?

[00:31:48 – 00:35:09] Reggy:
I have got the answer, I can tell you. One of the things that they thank me for is when I'm asking them the question, what is the major asset of an organization? I ask them the question. And then to go around, money, shareholder value, sustainability, and they say, oh, it's customers, and so on. And then comes the moment where they all agree it's people. So I let them build that conversation, and they all come, yes, people is the main asset. And then I tell them, that's a big mistake. And then they look at me, they're shocked because I say, you know, by the way, this is not from me. This is from Paul Evans, who's a great professor at INSEAD. And he says, listen, if people were the main asset of organizations, what would the stock value of a company do when they announce a collective dismissal, redundancy plan? Everybody would say, you get away, you throw away your main assets, so the company would go down. And the reality is that it just goes up by 90% of the cases. So the answer is not people. So stop saying, you are my major asset to your employees, particularly in today's world. Because in today's world, it takes two to three years to become obsolete. So people that have been there in 20 years in the company, they think that they actually are the main assets, so they stay there, and they think they're protected. The main asset of a company are the competencies of the people. And that is a world of difference. And that's what they thanked me for, because when I explained that to them, they most of the time tried to remember that, and then when I meet them, they say that to me, I got that one. So I'm not saying to the people that you are my major asset, I'm saying your competencies are my major asset. So that's what they thanked me for. I have some good credit interaction, and thank you, Paul Evans, for that tip. Now, the thing that they actually criticized me for-- but the thing that they actually say that makes me sad about what I would have liked to teach them is that I think no more than half of my students remember the story I just told. So when I see them five years later, I ask them, what's the major asset of a company? Oh, they said to me, oh, it was a great lesson, professor. And I say, what was the major asset? And they say, people. I say, oh, so I missed my point. But I mean, I don't know whether you like it, but I find that so inspiring that you really make sure in the 21st century, the length, the lifetime of a competence is between three to five years, and with AI, it will be even shorter. So if you don't explain to people that their main job is to keep up to date with competencies disappearing in no time at all, you must continuously learn. That's your major asset. And then you may have a career even after 2025 when AI is going to take over so many fields of activities. Does that make sense?

[00:35:09 – 00:35:11] Andreas:
It makes a lot of sense.

[00:35:11 – 00:35:13] Reggy:
Good. Like it.

[00:35:14 – 00:35:22] Andreas:
Is there something you personally had to rethink? Because you enjoy helping your students rethink, but is there something you had to rethink?

[00:35:23 – 00:36:38] Reggy:
And I still have. Still have to rethink. Yes. Yes. I don't know exactly who will listen to the podcasts, but from what I hear about the things that I say, I have still not succeeded in using business words. And I'm still too often seen as a teacher or as an HR. I'm trying, but it looks like I am still too theoretical. And I'm sad about that, because sometimes I come across CEOs, and they say the best sentence I heard was one day a CEO saying to me, Reggy, that was really interesting what you said. I'm still confused, but at a much higher level. So I didn't succeed, I guess. I'm not sure I will. And I hope that for that section, the time we spend today, that people will get a little bit of what I mean. But I know that the way I'm formulating my thoughts is not as crisp as it should be. I wish I was more clever and more to the point, but I mean, I am who I am. And I guess I'm not going to be able to change that.

[00:36:38 – 00:36:46] Andreas:
Maybe one day we'll have a universal translator from HR speak to manager speak, or CEO speak.

[00:36:47 – 00:36:58] Reggy:
Makes sense, it would be. I mean, what I just said here, can you please reformulate this so that a CEO has five minutes time to listen to HR stuff, would actually have some interest in what you say.

[00:37:01 – 00:37:23] Andreas:
And Reggie, earlier you said you love being over 60. At the same time, I have to ask you an intriguing question, which is what's stopping you from doing the best work of your life? You've clearly done a lot of illuminary work with the People Model Canvas. Is there something stopping you from doing the best work of your life?

[00:37:23 – 00:38:14] Reggy:
Yeah. My brain. My brain is working like-- my wife would tell you she's upset about that. It could be 3 o'clock in the morning. I wake up, and I've got an idea. And this is interrupting me all the time. I'm continuously interrupted by my own self. That's a bit of a problem. So yes, I'm sure if I had less of that sort of excitement, and I don't like to say the word passion, because passion is going into some emotional dimension that I don't like, but high level of engagement. Yeah, it's stopping me to be more focused and more structured, I guess. And I don't think I'll be-- I think I've given up on changing me on that dimension, because it's probably too late.

[00:38:15 – 00:38:20] Andreas:
You shared with me earlier you're going on a two-month vacation, so I'm hoping you can work on that.

[00:38:21 – 00:38:22] Reggy:
That's exactly the point.

[00:38:22 – 00:38:23] Andreas:
And befriend your mind.

[00:38:25 – 00:38:35] Reggy:
Sure. I'm going to try that. That's exactly the idea, seeing how do I run without having the natural sort of rhythm that's in front of me.

[00:38:36 – 00:38:48] Andreas:
If you could whisper to the ear of a CEO on why it's important to put people first in their company, what would you tell them?

[00:38:48 – 00:40:03] Reggy:
I would say you don't get to become a great company without two dimensions-- business performance and people performance. You need both, because business performance is about your product, your strategy, and so forth, but you don't get that sorted without people performance. If you want people performance, just remember that there is a simple formula. It's called competence, time engagement, time equity-- equity in the sense of fairness. So if you have any role to play as a CEO on the people performance side, make sure you do everything you can to get your employees at the top level of performance on the competence on the continuum basis. You create the conditions so that they are engaged, and you check that the practices that are in place are respectful of fairness and equity. That would probably be my comment.

[00:40:05 – 00:41:11] Andreas:
Reggie, thank you for letting us explore your ideas on the People Model Canvas and illuminating that part of your work, which is helping HR managers, helping managers understand their people better, and how can they involve them within their organization. How can they evolve their competencies, their skills, their potential, their recognition, and everything else? Again, I find it illuminating and very comprehensive in terms of how you have put an engineering framework on a problem that is very hard, especially to scale across scales and across industries. I hope that you take a very well-deserved break. You said the two months of holiday after 35 years of waiting for such a long holiday. So I hope-- I

[00:41:11 – 00:41:16] Reggy:
already have the sun. As you can see, the sun is already coming. And through the window, getting me out of business.

[00:41:19 – 00:42:03] Andreas:
So thank you. Thank you for sharing your insights with us. To everyone else that's listening, thank you for giving us your undivided attention for these last 40 or so minutes. If you liked the podcast, if you enjoyed the discussion as much as I enjoyed talking with Reggie, please give us a five-star rating, because that's how more people get to find out about the podcast and listen to it and share their insights. If you want to get in touch, you can reach me at andreas@rethinkculture.co. And like I love saying at the end of the podcast, keep leading, keep creating a better workplace, a better culture for you, and especially for those around you.